Tenon turning without a lathe?

[jeff]

Okay, this will make you all cringe. But I've fit some stems to pipes without a lathe or tenon turning tool. Instead, I used a dremel for some pretty bad results.

Right now, I don't have a lathe, and it really is unaffordable for me now or in the near future. Regrettably, as a student, the pimo turning tool is a bit steep at $70 including shipping as well. I do have a drill press, several hand drills, a bench grinder, and the average collection of garage and woodworking tools (not much, that is).

So, what are some alternatives, besides gritting my teeth and using sandpaper for hours? Any suggestions would be welcome.

Also, if anyone here has graduated to the "lathe owners club" and is looking to give up a pimo tool, I would be a willing recipient. Email me with the proposed selling cost and you would make a happy smoking seminarian. Thanks in advance for the advice.

[KurtHuhn]

Jeff,

You can use a technique that I use after I use my PIMO tool to get the stems "pretty close". The drawback to the PIMO tenon turner is that it's not indexable - you can't ever adjust it to exactly any given diameter at any point with any hope of repeatability. Tim West (jhlowe.com) sells a tool that's supposed to take the PIMO idea several steps further and offer an indexable and repeatable adjustment every single time. It's expensive though - about the price of a small metal lathe.

Anyway, the technique. I use the PIMO tool to get the tenon within "pretty close" and then cut a thin strip of sandpaper (220 or 320 grit) that's just as wide as teh tenon is long. Then I secure the stem in a cushioned vise and loop the sandpaper around the tenon so that I get good contact over a range of degrees. Like this:
<pre>
_______________
(O
---------------
</pre>

That awful ascii art aside, that's a view from the top down. The "O" is the tenon, and the lines extending to the right is the sandpaper strip. Pull it back and forth and occasionally switch sides so that you hit 12, 9, 6, and 3 o'clock.

Now, this isn't going to be very nice looking on stems that are supposed to fit flush, since the end of the stem won't be square. You really need a lathe or a PIMO tool to get that right, but it should work well enough for freehand stems that aren't supposed to fit flush. Just remember, too, go slow and be careful. It's very easy to get impatient and go too far using this method.

I can take a couple digipics if that ascii art doesn't do the job....

Kurt

[jeff]

Thanks for the answer Kurt. As for the ascii art, well, I used my imagination and the picture became much clearer

So, the answer appears to be that turning a tenon is impossible without a turning tool of some kind (pimo, jhlowe, lathe, etc.) I did talk to Tim about the jhlowe turner, but as you pointed out, I'd rather spend my $400 on a lathe and be able to handcut stems instead of drop the cash on only a turner.

Well, I guess that brings me back to a question posed in my original post. Have any of you graduated from the "Pimo club" to the "lathe club" and don't need your Pimo turner anymore? I'd be willing to buy one from someone as a new one is still out of my price range.

Thanks again for the help, Kurt

[Tyler]

Jeff,

This is a tough one. To get a tenon to fit well, I would say that it is going to be impossible without at least a Pimo tenon tool. I would offer you mine, but I promise you don't want it. It is worn out. In fact, I bought it used for the same reason you are looking for one and I regret that move. It was pretty much worn out when I bought it and it made a difficult tool nearly impossible to use. I bet I ruined two stems for every one that I got right with that worn out tool. I suggest saving your nickels for a few months and taking the plunge on a new one.

In the meantime, you can usually buy stems that are turned for you by other carvers. I know that Kirk Bosi has offered this in the past. You might try him.

AS for doing them by hand, I think the greatest tool might be patience. With a knife or file or sandpaper, I think you could get something that would work, it would just be ill-fiitting and extremely time consuming. Sometimes though, you gotta do what you gotta do!

Have fun!!

Tyler

[KurtHuhn]

Jeff,

Most people who buy a PIMO tool use it until it falls apart. For that reason alone, I would suggest staying away from a used one. Save your pennies for a couple months so that you can afford a new one. As Tyler mentioned, the tool is difficult to use to begin with. A worn tool would be pretty close to impossible to use.

Or, keep your eye out for a decent mini/micro lathe. They can be had for inexpensive money if you look around. I hear Taig lathes are the bee's knees for stem work, and there are inexpensive knockoffs of those around - but be careful of quality issues with knockoffs.

I intend to use my PIMO tool until I either need to buy a new one, or can afford a small metal lathe like the Taig. Or, until someone invents a metal-lathe-style toolpost that attaches to my Jet wood lathe. The PIMO tool isn't the best tool for the job, but it's about the baseline for proper tenon turning, in my opinion.

Kurt

[jeff]

So, what do you all mean when you say that the Pimo tools wear out? Does that mean that the cutting edge has gone, or that something or other could be replaced or reworked, or that it is literally on the verge of throwing itself into the trashcan if you don't throw it there first? Because if it's a cutting edge problem, Pimo offers replacements. Thoughts?

Jeff

[Tyler]

On my Pimo tool, the adjustable piece that holds the cutter wiggles like a loose tooth. Because of this, precise diameter control is virtually impossible. Could the tool be reworked? Possibly. I honestly do not know.

Tyler

[KurtHuhn]

What Tyler said.

Pretty much it just starts to fall apart. The cutting edge just about never dulls, but even if it did, it's three-sided so you just rotate it to a fresh side. The arm starts to wiggle a little, and as time goes on it starts to wiggle a little more. Takes a few years to go completely floopy though, and in the meantime it's a very useful tool. Problem is, it's not indexed at all, so you have to "feel the tool, be one with the tool, *become* the tool"....

[jeff]

Gentlemen, it sounds like a high-quality product meant for long life and full customer satisfaction! Realistically speaking, how long does it last, how many pipes? Not that I'm planning on pumping out hundreds over the next month or so, but if I drop the cash I want to make sure that it is a worthwhile investment, because, as we've already established, the resale value doesn't seem to be that hot.

Kurt, I check out your site, you've got some nice pipes. Maybe I'll find some summer money to buy one from you. I'd love to buy one of yours too, Tyler. But, I can't help thinking....pipe or lathe? You've got some beautiful work though and I'm sure they are worth every penny.

[KurtHuhn]

I would say the PIMO tool will easily last through a couple hundred pipes. Easily. It's not that it's poor in quality or construction, it's just that the type of tool that it is, for the price they charge, carries a significant learning curve and lends itself to wear.

The trick with it is to make sure you're pulling up on the adjustment hex-key as you're turning it in and out. That way, the arm isn't flopping all about, and you're not getting wild deviations in actual cutting diameter with the same number of turns from zeo.

To adjust the arm:
- insert the adjustment key and lock key into their set screws. Don't turn either one yet!
- push in lightly on the adjusting key, and pull up slightly.
- loosen the lock key by a quarter or half turn
- while maintaining an up-and-in pressure on the adjusting key, turn it in increments of half an hour (as in a clock)
- DO NOT LET GO OF THE ADJUSTING KEY
- tighten the lock key while you've still got pressure on the adjusting key
- pull the adjusting key straight out, take care not to turn it or press down on it
- trim your stem, and repeat as necessary

It sounds like a lot of work, but it's really a rythm that's easy to get into - especially when you're fitting a dozen stems to a dozen stummels (ask me what I did last night .

I've found, the best way to use the tool is to get the tenon "pretty close" and then buff the rings off of the tenon with brown tripoli. Buff a little more if you have to. You can also use the sandpaper strip trick above. This is the only sane way, that I've found, to use the tool.

Thanks for the kind words on the pipes. This weekend I'll have a pile more, up there. Mostly the countryman line - people*really* want those pipes, and I'm *way* behind on getting requests out right now. Catching a cold is pretty bad for business....

[kbosi]

Jeff, Send me an email. I think I have something that might be of use to you.

[Will_Branch]

Jeff,

I have made one pipe from an un-drilled block that I have fitted a stem to. I am looking for a Taig or Sherline lathe, but don't have one yet. So, the only method I had to use besdies hand sanding was my Delta belt / disc sander. I used the belt sander to try as best as I could reduce the tenon on the bit. I twirled the bit so the tenon would be sanded as evenly as possible using the belt / not the disc. I checked the fit about once every couple of revolutions of the bit to see how close I was.

I do not recommend this technique, but... The sander was $80 after a rebate from Lowe's Hardware, and is all I have until I get a lathe. I was just too eager to smoke my pretty stummel and had to do it! Looks like I'll have to use this method on the 2nd stummel I have waiting fro a stem.

[Nick]

What about trying to fit the end of a stem into a driull chuck? Granted, you'd probably have to get an extra large chuck, and then clamp the drill in a vice or somthing, but its an idea.

[KurtHuhn]

Maybe I should say "don't try this at home kids", I dunno. I do cut my own boring bits by chucking them in the lathe, spinning them at about 800rpm, and having at them with a Delta 4" grinder. Mostly you need good face/eye protection, a paid-up life insurance policy, a real good "feel" for your tools, and cojones the size of Dallas.

Ha!! Now there's a thought! It never occurred to me to use a grinder in conjunction with the lathe. That's crazy enough, it might just work! Not that my wife will enjoy the idea, but that's life.

*writes note to stop at Lowes for silver and demmings bits*

Any gotchas with using this method? How do you make sure the cutting edge stays sharp - or is that even a concern?

[KurtHuhn]

Random, assuming I have more sense than you could get you in trouble. I'm the kid that used to set creeks on fire when I figured out gasoline floats. I'm the teenager that played "real war" with the litte green army men when I found a can of black powder. I'm the guy that raced cars and motorcycles in college. I teach total weapons noobs how to handle firearms.

However, I am *not* totally without fear. I have a chainsaw helmet with lexan face shield, which I'll be donning, and a welder's apron, which I'll also be wearing, as well as fireplace gloves. I'll also be doing this when the wife is home - in case I need some EMC....

I don't forsee a problem - but I'm also not taking any chances.

[Tyler]

I'm getting nervous.

8O 8O 8O 8O

[KurtHuhn]

It's all good, really. I have about 20 years of metal/wood-working experience, and this is really a cakewalk compared to some stuff I've done (welding gas tanks, anyone?). The most dangerous part is going to be making sure the grinder wheel doesn't fragment. That's actually no so much of a concen, since the the wheels I have are somewhat flexible and forgiving.

I think Random and I might be making this sound worse than it really is. However, in the interest of keeping myself out of civil court:
Don't try this at home kids, I'm what you call "a professional"....

[ArtGuy]

Maybe Tyler can get it all on tape and then we might be able to submitt it to an upcoming special on FOX.