Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

For discussion of fitting and shaping stems, doing inlays, and any other stem-related topic.
caskwith
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by caskwith »

Some formulations of acrylic are worse than others for melting on the drill bit. Personally I used to find the pre-forms better than rod stock for this.
If you are having trouble drilling then peck drill it, slowly in for a few mm and fast retract to clear the chips, slide the whole if you can rather than use the handwheel and if necessary use a cutting/cooling fluid of soapy water stored in the fridge but make sure you put a towel/newspaper down on the bed of the lathe and dry your tools well after use otherwise you are going to be in rust city!
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Sasquatch
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by Sasquatch »

Soapy water works good. I just keep a squeezy bottle at the drill press.
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oklahoma red
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by oklahoma red »

this is an acrylic stem that I broke the bit off inside, snapped the tenon off and broke the button off. I hate acrylic.
In addition to George's excellent advice on patience, speeds and feeds, try touching the tip of the bit with a little chunk of beeswax every time you retract the bit to clear the swarf. This can make a dramatic difference.
The problem in drilling acrylic is the geometry of a all-purpose drill bit. Drill bits for hard plastic have a much smaller included point angle, usually between 60 and 90 degrees. This helps prevent break-out when the drill bit exits the other side. The cutting edge have been ground straight with additional clearance behind the edges.
The Dunhill "Duke" replica shown in my avatar (bigger pictures elsewhere on the site) has an acrylic shank. It was problematic mainly because the rod stock is extruded rather than cell cast (if you want to hate acrylic, hate extruded material). The hole is .156 straight thru, four inches long. I cracked out the first attempt because I went too fast. Second shot was successful but took a while to do it. The two issues that were working here are buying 1/4" dia. cast acrylic in white (or any color) requires a large special order. The other being that at the time I made the pipe I did not have the ability to accurately reduce 1/2" stock down to 1/4". That will change as soon as I get my Logan in operation.
Now the question arises about the tapered Fuller bits. To the best of my knowledge Fuller nor anyone else makes these ground for hard plastic. I intend to contact them to see if they would even entertain the idea. The other solution is to re-grind the tip myself. Probably will be difficult without a bit grinder due to the small tip. Another possibility would be to go part way un-tapered then lube the crap out of the tapered bit and chase the hole and make the taper.
Obviously acrylic offers colors and patterns not available in hard rubber so don't be gun-shy. Like most things, there is a learning curve involved.
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TreverT
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by TreverT »

Some various rambles...

I love the specialized acrylic drilling bits. They make a huge difference. Also, it helps to use food-safe cutting oil during the drilling. More than anything, though, go slow and "tap" - Drill a bit, back out, repeat.

LL, your wrists are going to hate you for stem filing like that. I use a rotating mount that holds the stem from both ends, using a drill bit in the bit end so I can easily rotate the stem sideways and directly visually see how thin the material is getting towards the interior airhole size.

As for filing, audiobooks are the answer. I love stem filing because it's a chance to immerse myself in a good book. When you've filed stems for 15 years, it gets pretty boring otherwise. :shock: Shaping=Suitable music, Filing and sanding=Audiobooks.
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dogcatcher
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by dogcatcher »

TreverT wrote:Some various rambles...

I love the specialized acrylic drilling bits. They make a huge difference. Also, it helps to use food-safe cutting oil during the drilling. More than anything, though, go slow and "tap" - Drill a bit, back out, repeat.
I use Pam cooking spray when drilling acrylic. The cheap generic versions work just as well. If I am working with acrylic and it won't be in contact with the mouth I use automatic transmission fluid. The penturners and game callmakers also use Pam and ATF. I prefer it over soap and water, because of rust issues on the ways of the lathe.
LatakiaLover
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by LatakiaLover »

TreverT wrote:
I love the specialized acrylic drilling bits.
I've never been able to find the sharp point / steep twist kind in anything but in standard jobber length, which is too short for most stems. Do you have a source for long ones?
LL, your wrists are going to hate you for stem filing like that. I use a rotating mount that holds the stem from both ends, using a drill bit in the bit end so I can easily rotate the stem sideways and directly visually see how thin the material is getting towards the interior airhole size.
10-4 on wrist hate. :lol: I use something like what you describe most of the time, just didn't in those pics.
As for filing, audiobooks are the answer. I love stem filing because it's a chance to immerse myself in a good book. When you've filed stems for 15 years, it gets pretty boring otherwise.
Indeed. It's mostly NPR for me. I'm a sucker for good interviews.
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oklahoma red
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by oklahoma red »

I've never been able to find the sharp point / steep twist kind in anything but in standard jobber length, which is too short for most stems. Do you have a source for long ones?
You might try contacting this outfit as they say they can supply specials:http://www.thefabricatorssource.com/pro ... drills.htm
Re-shaping your own is not that hard to do with a good grinder. Chuck the bit in a hand drill and spin it backwards while lightly touching the face of the wheel. This will get you the angle and some of the clearance. Touch the cutting edges on the side of the wheel to straighten them to make more of a scraping action to prevent the bit from feeding itself into the material. Lightly add a little more clearance if needed. Look closely at the bits on the aforementioned web site and you can see the geometry.
Working with binocular magnifiers helps a lot when doing this.
Chas.
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BigCasino
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by BigCasino »

I went to wal mart and bought a bottle of the KY personal lubricant, the liquid type, for drilling acrylic, it seems to be working well
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Joe Hinkle Pipes
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by Joe Hinkle Pipes »

When doing heavy drilling, nothing else will do.
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TreverT
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by TreverT »

LatakiaLover wrote: I've never been able to find the sharp point / steep twist kind in anything but in standard jobber length, which is too short for most stems. Do you have a source for long ones?
I've never seen them longer, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone like MSC didn't have longer ones available. I haven't often needed anything longer than standard, myself, and when I do I just drill as far as I can with the acrylic bit and then do the final distance carefully with my extra-long tapered bits. I've also got a hand-modified long one that I've rounded the tip on, and it works really well too.

I'm so glad this forum exists. I used to get around 3-4 emails a day asking for detailed instruction on how to do stuff like this.
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LatakiaLover
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by LatakiaLover »

TreverT wrote:
I've never seen them longer, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone like MSC didn't have longer ones available. I haven't often needed anything longer than standard, myself, and when I do I just drill as far as I can with the acrylic bit and then do the final distance carefully with my extra-long tapered bits. I've also got a hand-modified long one that I've rounded the tip on, and it works really well too.
Indeed. Modding bits is pretty easy with a belt grinder, cordless drill, and a steady hand. If you have a good idea of what you want to end up with, anyway. :lol: I don't think I have an unmodified tool in my shop, come to think of it. Pipe work is just too specialized.
I'm so glad this forum exists. I used to get around 3-4 emails a day asking for detailed instruction on how to do stuff like this.
And now you get 8-12 a day asking how to make the tools to do stuff like this. :lol:

It's all good, though. After all, you could still be in France dealing with the conseil général, right?
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pipedreamer
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by pipedreamer »

This forum is great.You realize you aren't alone and there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Just had a bout with an acrylic rod and drill bit. There was just enough bit left to get my channel locks on,so after freezing I got the bit out. What a dog fight! Would have thrown it all away, but had turned the tenon on my wood lathe and didn't want to do that again. I know there are easier ways,but the client wanted it to be integral. He heard some bs about glue breakdown on stems with glued tenons. I thank all, for your contributions. I'm grateful to all of you. You inspire me. Especially on the days that I'm a burning crash scene.
LatakiaLover
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by LatakiaLover »

pipedreamer wrote:...the client wanted it to be integral. He heard some bs about glue breakdown on stems with glued tenons.
There are two things regarding glued tenons that must be done right or the joint can indeed fail. I've seen a significant number of pulled-out and wobbly/loose tenons over the years.

First, while a correct-for-the-task glue will not deteriorate or soften in a stem/tenon joint environment, some people don't use one.

Second, even when a proper glue is used, prepping the joint so that a mechanical lock is created after it hardens is essential. Simply roughening the surface of Delrin or Teflon isn't enough unless using a formulation designed to stick to the stuff (which is unlikely---they are are exotic and very expensive)... you must cut crosshatched grooves/slots that fill with glue when the tenon is inserted, so that after it hardens a tubular, 3-D puzzle piece is created that can't let go of the tenon.

Though cutting grooves into the walls of the stem that will soon be holding the tenon might be overkill (glues stick to common stem materials far better than Delrin/Teflon), I always do it anyway for insurance. Takes only a minute, and there's no possible downside.
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caskwith
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by caskwith »

Some good tips above. In the past year or so I have switched to using threaded delrin tenons so even if the glue fails completely the tenons will still hold. In fact the glue isn't really needed at all, it just seals things up nicely.
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5277a124
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by 5277a124 »

You are the man!
fastredx
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by fastredx »

And here is the finished stem alongside the original. There are some quality and efficiency tricks to the final shaping and polishing of a stem, but this post is already obnoxiously long. Maybe at some future time. :)
Would be very interested in those tricks as I have to spend a ton of time trying to get the stem to shank registration perfect !!
LatakiaLover
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by LatakiaLover »

fastredx wrote:
And here is the finished stem alongside the original. There are some quality and efficiency tricks to the final shaping and polishing of a stem, but this post is already obnoxiously long. Maybe at some future time. :)
Would be very interested in those tricks as I have to spend a ton of time trying to get the stem to shank registration perfect !!
That's usually a tooling issue, not a skill or technique one.

The human eye can resolve a light gap to an astonishingly small amount---WELL under a thousandth of an inch under the right conditions---and most woodworking tools aren't designed to go there, precision-wise. That's why most pro pipe makers use metal lathes instead of wood lathes.

There are ways to face stems and shanks after the fact, but it is difficult, time consuming, and takes a lot of practice. Not recommended. :lol:
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Joe Hinkle Pipes
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by Joe Hinkle Pipes »

fastredx wrote:
And here is the finished stem alongside the original. There are some quality and efficiency tricks to the final shaping and polishing of a stem, but this post is already obnoxiously long. Maybe at some future time. :)
Would be very interested in those tricks as I have to spend a ton of time trying to get the stem to shank registration perfect !!
Something I have learned lately in regards to this.
If you are using a wood lathe you can turn the outside diameter of the stem material to finished (or almost finished) size and then cut A VERY small bevel on the stem face/tenon intersection. Bevel it inwards towards the button, leaving 1/16" of non beveled material on the outer portion of the stem, and if you do it correctly, the bevel is not visible when finished. It is important to have very sharp tools and take a very small cut. Im talking 1/64" towards the tenon. Put that stem together with a chamfered shank face and you have no light gap. Again, this is how I do it, I was never shown this technique and dont know how it is perceived by other pipemakers.
caskwith
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by caskwith »

That works fine until you adjust the shank/stem junction unevenly and you end up with a gap that keeps getting bigger.
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Joe Hinkle Pipes
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Re: Rod Stock Stem Creation --- a repairman's method

Post by Joe Hinkle Pipes »

Its effectively like putting the horns of two trumpets together. there is no interference because the only portions that touch are the outer edges. That is an exaggeration obviously, but maybe it explains the process better. Like I said, it works for me, YMMV.
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