Stainless tenon question

[fiddlestix]

This topic may very well have been discussed on here before, but a quick search didn't show anything. Sorry if I'm rehashing an old discussion.

I've been thinking about attempting a pencil shank billiard or Canadian and I thought I would just run stainless tubing through the length of the shank for added strength. This led me to wonder about leaving some stainless extended out past the end of the shank for the tenon and drilling a mortise in the stem. I have thought about the same thing in regards to bamboo shanks as the ebonite seems more stable than the bamboo and less likely to loosen.

I haven't seen it done this way, so I'm assuming it is a bad idea, but can't really figure out why... Any thoughts?

[sandahlpipe]

You can certainly do this. However, if you do, you will find that no moisture is absorbed in the shank. Depending on how thin the shank is, a reinforcement may not be necessary. Briar is pretty tough material.


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[LatakiaLover]

...you will find that no moisture is absorbed in the shank.

Is that good or bad? Please elaborate... the suspense is killing me.

Depending on how thin the shank is, a reinforcement may not be necessary. Briar is pretty tough material.

Once again, you're leaving us hanging. "Thin" and "tough" are both relative and subjective. Please supply more detail.

[sandahlpipe]

I'm not saying one way or another. On either account. Personally, if I'm going to make a pencil shank, I'll use a stainless tenon that's short enough for the shank to absorb some moisture. Now I've seen some pencil shanks where the walls of the shank couldn't have been much thicker than 1/16". If it's that thin, I'd line it with stainless so it doesn't break.

As for moisture absorption, if there are any flaws in the shank, moisture will seep in and weaken the briar, making it more likely to crack at that spot.

Stainless will also diminish the flavor of briar and not allow cake to build up in the airway. I suppose these are just things to consider. No one-size-fits-all solution.


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[RadDavis]

I don't know what to advise about running stainless the entire length of the shank, but a reverse tenon for the stem is perfectly acceptable. I use a reverse tenon on bamboo shanks.

Rad

[LatakiaLover]

I'm not saying one way or another. On either account. Personally, if I'm going to make a pencil shank, I'll use a stainless tenon that's short enough for the shank to absorb some moisture. Now I've seen some pencil shanks where the walls of the shank couldn't have been much thicker than 1/16". If it's that thin, I'd line it with stainless so it doesn't break.

So. 1/16" feels to you like the minimum wall thickness for strength reasons, but since you like the idea of an absorbent shank you don't go that thin, yourself....

As for moisture absorption, if there are any flaws in the shank, moisture will seep in and weaken the briar, making it more likely to crack at that spot.

BUT... you prefer doing things in a way that (statistically) is more likely to result in breakage down the road, anyhow...

Stainless will also diminish the flavor of briar...

How do you know this, exactly? Please be specific.

...and not allow cake to build up in the airway.

Easily confused is me. Once again, are you trying to imply that's a good thing, or a bad thing?

I suppose these are just things to consider. No one-size-fits-all solution.

"Suppose" is a weasel word, and implying there are other things to consider is an odd way to close a series of declarative statements. Either you know this stuff or you don't. Which is it?

[stern look icon]

[fiddlestix]

I don't know what to advise about running stainless the entire length of the shank, but a reverse tenon for the stem is perfectly acceptable. I use a reverse tenon on bamboo shanks.

Rad

Great! Thanks Rad.

[fiddlestix]

You can certainly do this. However, if you do, you will find that no moisture is absorbed in the shank. Depending on how thin the shank is, a reinforcement may not be necessary. Briar is pretty tough material.


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Thanks for the food for thought, Jeremiah. I had also wondered about the moisture issue.

[sandahlpipe]

LatakiaLover,

If you're trying to pin me down on whether I know stuff or not, I'll say that I think I have a good idea, but don't have the years of experience that would give me a more definitive perspective. The OP didn't specify how thin the pencil shank was going to be, airway diameter, or whatever. This is why I wasn't as specific as you would have liked.

As for the comments you put, I do not prefer to leave the shank walls at 1/16" without some kind of reinforcement, especially if there are flaws in the briar. I have several shop pipes with thin shanks and flaws in the shank which broke at the place of the flaw. If there is a structural flaw like that, it wouldn't leave my shop. But if someone else has different standards, stainless steel could compensate for this flaw. As for the flavor, I have only personal experience to go on. I've made a couple of pipes with stainless steel tubing all the way through. They taste different to me and aren't as dry as the pipes I've made with airways of the same diameter. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just different. Same thing with cake buildup. If cake builds up in the shank, it tints the flavor with the carbon, but it has the disadvantage that the cake can restrict the airflow over time and need to be re-opened. Stainless won't get the flavors that come from the buildup, but you don't have to worry about the airway constricting. In my mind, my comments were merely stating pro's and con's of each way of doing it.

If there is some unwritten rule that I have to be an expert to comment on these threads, please forgive me for violating it. I'm really not trying to stir up anything. I'm not an expert, but I've given a lot of thought to the materials and processes of pipe making. If I say something wrong, feel free to correct me. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one that thinks what I'm saying. In a classroom situation, students learn as much from right answers as they do from wrong ones. I'm here to learn and I don't take offense at being told my answer is wrong.

[LatakiaLover]

If there is some unwritten rule that I have to be an expert to comment on these threads, please forgive me for violating it. I'm really not trying to stir up anything. I'm not an expert, but I've given a lot of thought to the materials and processes of pipe making. If I say something wrong, feel free to correct me. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one that thinks what I'm saying. In a classroom situation, students learn as much from right answers as they do from wrong ones. I'm here to learn and I don't take offense at being told my answer is wrong.

The problem with this ^^^^ approach is that it relies upon the labor of others for the wash to come out clean. Those who actually have the answers are forced to decide whether to let your wrong guesses pass, thus adding to the pool of misinformation in the PipeWorld, or drop what they are doing to set things straight.

You are a smart guy, Sandahl, and appear to be able to create with your hands & tools what your mind's eye sees. In short, you have talent. This is good. (What you've created so far with your hands, tools, and mind's eye, though, is the usual beginner's goofy shit. Well EXECUTED goofy shit, to be sure, but still goofy.)

Realizing that intelligence and talent are distinctly different from experience and knowledge-in-depth is the next rung on your ladder, I think. Your eagerness to help others is commendable, but when that eagerness distorts the information you're handing out, everyone loses. Give it time, man. You WILL be legitimately good one day if you keep at it. In the meantime, stick to what you truly know---not just read somewhere on the Net or you happen to have a feeling about---when responding to objective questions, and all will be well.

[sandahlpipe]

I don't disagree with what you're saying in principle, but I didn't read the original question as objective. I took the approach of weighing advantages and disadvantages. I wasn't presenting an objective answer.

As for my knowledge being acquired on the net, I've got to chuckle. Much of what I've learned I've learned here on this forum, which is on the net. That and trying goofy stuff on my pipes, apparently.


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[LatakiaLover]

I don't disagree with what you're saying in principle, but I didn't read the original question as objective.

Whether a full-length ss sleeve for a pencil shank pipe is a good or bad idea is one of those best-measured-empirically things where guessing and intuition don't count for much, I'm afraid.

That you read it as, "Please speculate on this" is part of your eagerness thing, maybe. Anyway, no need to run on about that. I made my point, and it seems you accepted it.

As for my knowledge being acquired on the net, I've got to chuckle. Much of what I've learned I've learned here on this forum, which is on the net.

The irony is thick, there, definitely.

I realized as soon as you said it that I don't think of PMF as the Internet, because it's a Bullshit Free Zone. (As much as such a thing can be, anyway)

I was referring to elsewhere on the Net. There's no shortage of bad information out there, or people determined to propagate it.

That and trying goofy stuff on my pipes, apparently.

For a talented beginner, goofy is good. Studying and perfecting the classics---while experimenting with whatever captures your imagination on the side--is the ideal developmental path, I think.

As long as you understand that you will NOT be satisfied with those explorations and experiments when you look back on them in the future, all is well. Your head is in the right place.

[sandahlpipe]

I realized as soon as you said it that I don't think of PMF as the Internet, because it's a Bullshit Free Zone. (As much as such a thing can be, anyway)

Well everyone reading this can take note that my comments are to be taken with a load of salt. In the meantime, I'll try to minimize my eagerness to help. It's just in my personality to try to help where I can. When I get in over my head, I learn for the next time.

[LatakiaLover]

In the meantime, I'll try to minimize my eagerness to help.

Not what I said, or tried to imply.

By all means, help all you can, about whatever you like, and whenever you like.

When the urge hits, though, just take a second and ask yourself about the source and therefore the likely quality of the information you are about to provide, and label it accordingly.

[sandahlpipe]

Thank you for providing clarity. I will try to distinguish clearly between facts and my own opinions. In person, you could see the difference, but I need to remember to account for non-verbal communication here.


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[jogilli]

Can we just go back to discussing the fine art of making a blowfish

James

[LatakiaLover]

Can we just go back to discussing the fine art of making a blowfish

You're late to the party. Sas already covered it:

You could use a dremel with a large, ugly cutting burr. You could use the edge of a shaping disc. You could use a 1/2" carving gouge. All these things remove material. If you cut with them in a circle, you will leave a lump behind in the middle. That's how you carve out a lump, or anything else. You remove what isn't the lump.

Now you can make your blowfish, because you've been told how to carve it.

[jogilli]

[PremalChheda]

This topic may very well have been discussed on here before, but a quick search didn't show anything. Sorry if I'm rehashing an old discussion.

I've been thinking about attempting a pencil shank billiard or Canadian and I thought I would just run stainless tubing through the length of the shank for added strength. This led me to wonder about leaving some stainless extended out past the end of the shank for the tenon and drilling a mortise in the stem. I have thought about the same thing in regards to bamboo shanks as the ebonite seems more stable than the bamboo and less likely to loosen.

I haven't seen it done this way, so I'm assuming it is a bad idea, but can't really figure out why... Any thoughts?

Best thing to do is make a pencil shank with a diameter that you think is sufficient without using ss tubing. Just simple briar and stem. You can then test it and find out if you are too thin or maybe you have some room to make it thinner without the ss tubing.

The diameter of a standard no. 2 pencil is very thin and there is always a risk of breakage if it is not reinforced, but it should be strong enough for normal handling. I have not seen ss tubing installed on a professional pipe makers work for a pencil shank to this date. I prefer not to make pencil shanks, because pipes sometimes are not handled normally by the consumer, and I do not like replacing pipes.

[LatakiaLover]

I have not seen ss tubing installed on a professional pipe makers work for a pencil shank to this date.

But... there SHOULD be.

I have no idea if word gets back to the makers, but I've had to fix many pencil shanks w/ss sleeves. Especially those lovely and famous little cuttys and cherrywoods with the router-rusticated finish. (That barbershop-pole-style material removal leaves shockingly little in certain spots when viewed in cross section).

Based on what I've seen, if I were a pipe maker I'd sleeve any and all etched/blasted/rusticated pencil shanks as a matter of policy. An irregular outer surface is structurally akin to a scratch on glass.