Here We Go AGAIN

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Yak
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Here We Go AGAIN

Post by Yak »

Marty Pulvers, as you probably know, has an inexhaustible store of anecdotes-war stories about the pipes & tobaccos business going way back. Whenever he posts one you like, you have to copy & save it yourself,otherwise it disappears into cyberoblivion whenever he posts a new title page rap.

I don't know whether the visiting gentlemen in the story which follows were "having him on" or not, and have no way of finding out. Opinions on the matter, needless to say, differ widely and vociferously. (I'm omitting the section where he covers rat urine out of respect for the delicate sensibilities here).

FWIW then (Posted at his site on April 20, 2014):
Back in the late 60s, early 70s, I worked in an office just 2 1/2 blocks from Smoker's Haven in downtown Columbus. You can guess where my lunch hours were spent several days a week.

I got to know the owners and staff very well and was a regular customer. I think it was about 1969 that several representatives of Charatan came to S.H. for what we today would call a trunk show. Smoker's Haven was one of the leading sellers of Charatan in the US, maybe even the top seller. I was lucky enough to be invited to lunch with them and several of the S.H. staff.

One of the Charatan staff, who I happened to sit next to, had the unusual title of "Briar Buyer". His father and grandfather before him had held the same title with Charatan. He told me they selected briar and warehoused it for years. He said that his father bought briar that he knew wouldn't be made into a pipe till after he retired.

Some of their briar was warehoused for as long as fifty years before it was selected to make a pipe. They had thousands of blocks. Dunhill probably got most in the late 70s when they took over Charatan but it was rumored that Barry Jones managed to acquire several thousand blocks when he left to start Upshall, which is also why some of the early Upshalls are fine smoking pipes. Old briar.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by LatakiaLover »

99% of humans CHOOSE to believe in what they do because, in some way, it makes them feel warm and fuzzy to do so. Or righteous. Or enlightened. Or [fill in the blank].

Then, after making their choices, they look at the Universe with a double-edged sort of confirmation bias: They connect supportive dots that aren't actually there, and dismiss/ignore/deny/etc. evidence that refutes their beliefs. (Indeed, in many cases, they expend considerable energy to undermine contrary evidence.)

This behavior applies to many things, from the most trivial to the Origin of the Universe.

The "older the briar, the better it is" myth is simply one of them.

End of story.
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sandahlpipe
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by sandahlpipe »

I dunno. I can tell a difference between the new, wet briar and the 50 year old stuff I have.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by LatakiaLover »

sandahlpipe wrote:I dunno. I can tell a difference between the new, wet briar and the 50 year old stuff I have.
The issue isn't incompletely cured vs. completely cured. It is whether 50 or 1000 or million-year-old completely cured briar is better than 3, 5, or 7 year old completely cured briar. (or whatever the minimum age required for complete curing is.)
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by sandahlpipe »

I have well cured briar from the 1950's as well as some fresh Mimmo and some probably about 10 year old briar from Tim West. It all makes good quality pipes. But the 50 year old stuff has had enough time to dry completely and I can measure a difference between how fast it absorbs moisture compared with the other briar.

What I don't know is where the cutoff is for when briar is fully stabilized to its environment. I think I remember Newcombe talking about a difference between 5 and 20 year old briar. Not the age of the burl but the time since it was cured.

I also know that the older it is, the harder it becomes to work with. It's really easy to turn wet wood, but the dry stuff will chip really easily.


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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by LatakiaLover »

sandahlpipe wrote:I have well cured briar from the 1950's as well as some fresh Mimmo and some probably about 10 year old briar from Tim West. It all makes good quality pipes. But the 50 year old stuff has had enough time to dry completely and I can measure a difference between how fast it absorbs moisture compared with the other briar.
I'm not sure if you are saying the 50-year-old stuff is "better", or not.

If dry is your thing, why mince around? Get on with it. Boil some weighed, shaped stummels in a pressure cooker of alcohol for a half hour, cool, remove, dry with a hot air gun, and weigh 'em again. That's DRY, my friend. Also unsuitable as a smoking device for quite a long time. Stem fit will change almost daily, it's char-prone, and becomes murderously hot to the touch.

What I don't know is where the cutoff is for when briar is fully stabilized to its environment. I think I remember Newcombe talking about a difference between 5 and 20 year old briar. Not the age of the burl but the time since it was cured.
:lol: Rick also recommends coating a new pipe's bowl with a layer of honey, packing it with table sugar, dumping it out, and leaving the sugar layer intact for the first smoke as a shortcut to creating a perfect cake. :lol:
I also know that the older it is, the harder it becomes to work with. It's really easy to turn wet wood, but the dry stuff will chip really easily.
Definitely true, that. There are many makers who wouldn't use 100-year-old "granite briar" if it was given to them.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

Here's the secret to briar aging/better flavor: https://www.google.com/search?q=placebo ... definition

A year or two will suffice for full aging.
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sandahlpipe
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by sandahlpipe »

I'm saying that I like the briar better. Stabilized is different than just dried. The aged briar I have does not change stem fit because it has adjusted to the environment.

And when Rick talks about the difference in age, he was reporting the findings of one of the three Danish masters. I forget which one he was talking about. I think it was Jess Chonowitsch who used anything between 5-7 and 20 year old briar. There's probably not a difference between the 20 year old and the 50, but I got lots of the 50 year old stuff and love it, despite the extra care needed when working with it.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by LatakiaLover »

sandahlpipe wrote: I can tell a difference between the new, wet briar and the 50 year old stuff I have.

...the 50 year old stuff has had enough time to dry completely and I can measure a difference between how fast it absorbs moisture compared with the other briar.

I'm saying that I like the briar better.

...but I got lots of the 50 year old stuff and love it...
The only difference you've mentioned since the thread started is that really old briar is harder to work with and chips more easily.

So, why all the love, exactly? Please be specific.
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sandahlpipe
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by sandahlpipe »

I think it absorbs more moisture than the other pipes I've smoked. It dries out quicker between smokes. That's it. Like I said, I don't have a point of comparison between my 50 year old briar and anything in between that and 7 year old briar. It absorbs better than the 7 year old stuff I've got.

Call it placebo if you want. I don't have a moisture meter to quantify it. I just know when I soak the briar to see the grain, I barely touch it to the wheel and it's already dry. I can't say the same for the 7 year old stuff. The fresh stuff is so wet the chamber steams when drilling. There's probably a point at which no more stabilization is possible. It's probably not reached after 2 years, because it doesn't absorb as much water. There's a difference between stabilized to where it won't crack if it hasn't already and where it reaches it's peak absorption level.

I suppose there are many variables which can account for it being more absorbent than other briar I've worked with.

I also know I probably kicked over a beehive here and will be happy to back down and just make my pipes out of what I believe is the best briar I have. Actually, either way, I'd better use it, because I bought like 300 blocks of it... :-) I'm fine with you thinking me a fool for it. But it really works well for me with the couple of testing pipes I've made myself.
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Tyler
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by Tyler »

The problem with all of this is all we can be -- or at least are being -- is anecdotal. Additionally, there are too many variables at play. Country of origin for the wood, weather patterns for the key years it was harvested, and the treating processes used by the cutter, etc..

Jeremiah has old wood seems to absorb more (or less, depending on how you interpret it drying more quickly), and he likes that. Great. Is it because of its age? Likely to some degree.

The problem is we can't quantify it at all, and thus the everlasting debate.

Smoke what you like, like what you smoke...you know, same ol' same ol'.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by LatakiaLover »

sandahlpipe wrote:
I also know I probably kicked over a beehive here and will be happy to back down and just make my pipes out of what I believe is the best briar I have. Actually, either way, I'd better use it, because I bought like 300 blocks of it... :-) I'm fine with you thinking me a fool for it. But it really works well for me with the couple of testing pipes I've made myself.
There you go almost putting words in my mouth. :lol:

I never said you were foolish, or even thought it. I simply wanted to know why you thought 50-year-old briar was superior, when so many carvers consider it hard on tools, time-consuming to shape, and prone to chipping.

It seems likely that there's a bit of the confirmation bias I mentioned earlier happening, since you are $7-10K into it, but it could just as easily be a half full/half empty sort of observation and you're a half full sort of guy.

As long as it isn't touted as categorically superior, a la Alfred Dunhill's "dead root" briar, I'm fine with you liking 50-year-old wood (or anything else) simply because you prefer its characteristics. Not many makers do, but that's a process/handling issue. There's certainly nothing lacking in the end product for those willing to do the extra work.

Thanks for the clarification.
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caskwith
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by caskwith »

I like good briar.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by sandahlpipe »

Thank you for your kind words, George. I will readily admit to being a glass full kind of person. And now that I've learned more about keeping tools sharp, if I take my time, I can actually avoid most of the chipping.

And if anyone has 100 year old briar they don't want, I can give you my address. Besides liking my glass half full, I always enjoy a good challenge.
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

Please understand I wasn't actually calling you foolish- if I had a bunch of 50yr old briar available from a source I liked, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

When I said placebo, I was referring to marketing schemes like Dunhill's "deadroot" briar and countless others. I think placebo is actually a huge part of how all pipes smoke. If you're an everyday smoker who believes deadroot briar is the absolute best tasting stuff and only Dunhill has it, then by golly you're gonna start to imagine that your Dunhills are smoking better than any of your other pipes!
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by sandahlpipe »

Placebo + good engineering + best materials = great smoke.

I agree with you. Though if I pay more than I think the pipe is worth, I don't think it's as good of a smoke. I like my estate Dunhill from the 1960's, but had I paid more than the $120 I spent, I wouldn't like it very much.

And just for the record, I wasn't saying anyone thought I was a fool. I'm just ok with you thinking that. I'm not one to care what people think of me as long as I know I'm doing my best.


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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by scotties22 »

caskwith wrote:I like good briar.

Hope this helps.
I like that you like good briar....I do too.

I hope this didn't help at all as I wasn't really trying to be helpfull :D
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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by d.huber »

I appreciate good pizza.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by E.L.Cooley »

Mmmm huber my favorite is bacon, onion, jalapeño with light sauce deep dish if available.
As for briar, I've been worried that I never thought to ask where it's from, let alone the age. I guess at this point I am my best customer and have not given myself a bad time for answering myself that it's from the Mediterranean. Bwah.


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Re: Here We Go AGAIN

Post by RadDavis »

Once briar is dry, it doesn't get any drier. :)

Hope this helps.

Rad
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