Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

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The Smoking Yeti
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

ToddJohnson wrote: It's like pulling a plant out of your vegetable garden by the roots so you can shake every last edible morsel off of it RIGHT NOW!. Great, it'll provide you with one big meal, and you'll be fat and happy for a short time, but when you go back to it again, and you're hungry, all you're gonna find is a hole in the ground.
Or like taking a really big poo....

never mind, that analogy doesn't quite work.

recognizing how important time spent making pipes is to customers has been really difficult for me. In my mind, I'm in this for the long haul. I ditched all my other options on purpose to make sure I would fully commit myself. At this point I'm married and I HAVE to make pipes every day or my wife and I won't have a roof over our heads.

But how can my customers know this? In their minds, I'm still practically a kid, and most kids these days are incredibly flaky. I guess I'll have to work against that.
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by wdteipen »

So the battle royale isn't going to happen? Guess I'll leave the logging chain at home this year.
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caskwith
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by caskwith »

The Smoking Yeti wrote: In their minds, I'm still practically a kid, and most kids these days are incredibly flaky. I guess I'll have to work against that.

Just keep making pipes. I made my first when I was 20 and faced the same problems though in a less competitive market back then. The only advice I can ever offer with conviction and certainty when people ask me for help is "make pipes"

This has been a fascinating thread especially for me in the slightly unusual position of not being an "Indie US pipemaker" but selling the vast majority of my pipes to the US. I guess you Yanks like our British turds :lol:
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by Tyler »

notow1 wrote:"You mentioned I've reviewed a pipe of yours, and I apologize for not remembering. (I lose track switching back and forth between real names and usernames.). I mention that first because I am in no way making this comment about your pipe(s). I don't remember that review."
Tyler I was the handsome Guy with about six pipes and You couldn't believe how wonderful they were, at Chicago last year. I'm pretty sure I stopped using an alias by then, Norm.
Oh yea! Gotcha. Norm! <said Cheers style>
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ToddJohnson
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by ToddJohnson »

Micah,

Having seen your pipes in person, and knowing how committed you are to doing this the right way, let me just say, without positing we actually form one, that this is the very reason guilds exist. Being part of one would demonstrate that you have actually committed yourself to pipe making as a trade, and you would be apprenticed to someone who would walk you down a well-worn path to excellence.

I've trained quite a few pipe makers over the years, formally and informally, but only a couple were genuinely interested in doing excellent work and advancing the state of high-grade pipes as a medium of expression. The others just wanted free advice and instruction to get to a point where they could start selling their work, then selling the private (though incomplete) training they received to anyone who would pay for it. Most of them have gone no further than that and likely never will. I realized that what I wanted for them--to become excellent--they don't want for themselves, so I'm done with the shop visits and "workshops." Maybe once BriarWorks is running itself and doesn't require my daily participation I'll be able to go back to making my own pipes full time and there will be someone both promising enough and committed enough to take on as a formal apprentice. I'd love to be able to pass on what I've learned from the talented and generous men who took me under their wing when I was just a whippersnapper. I've learned why a wise man once said "cast not your pearls to swine" though.

The best thing you can do, Micah, is continue making excellent pipes, and do so consistently for a number of years. As has been said a number of times already, slow and steady wins the race. And, just to be clear, the reason your collectors think of you as "practically a kid" is because at 19, you are a kid--a very mature, articulate and talented kid, but a kid nonetheless. :) I think you know I mean that with no disrespect. I was 19 when I started making pipes, and I knew I was committed to it as well, but it took some time for everyone else to catch on and realize the same. Keep doing great work and soon enough you'll be a clear standout in the crowd.

TJ
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

ToddJohnson wrote: The best thing you can do, Micah, is continue making excellent pipes, and do so consistently for a number of years. As has been said a number of times already, slow and steady wins the race. And, just to be clear, the reason your collectors think of you as "practically a kid" is because at 19, you are a kid--a very mature, articulate and talented kid, but a kid nonetheless. :) I think you know I mean that with no disrespect. I was 19 when I started making pipes, and I knew I was committed to it as well, but it took some time for everyone else to catch on and realize the same. Keep doing great work and soon enough you'll be a clear standout in the crowd.

TJ
Yep! Fortunately for me I don't have a bunch of starving children to feed, so I can take the time to do things right.

As far as my age goes though, people seem to be in the habit of knocking a few years off it! Whilst this will be flattering when I'm old as shit(think 30+), I'm 21 now damnit!

Cheers!

Yeti
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

caskwith wrote: This has been a fascinating thread especially for me in the slightly unusual position of not being an "Indie US pipemaker" but selling the vast majority of my pipes to the US. I guess you Yanks like our British turds :lol:
It's odd, because the universal category/ stigma being thrown on new American carvers IS "Indie". To some people, this is a good thing, to others it's to be avoided. I like to think of myself as the latter. I don't consider myself remotely "Indie".

For the sake of discussion, I think we all know who the "Indie" pipe crowd is, but can we actually define it? Are you no longer an Independent maker if you sell through retailers?

P.S. British turds are apparently better than the current American standard turd.
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by scotties22 »

"Indie" had gotten to be about as bad as "Artisan"....or vise versa. Neither really have any meaning anymore because of overuse on social media. The "indie" part is kind of a given as well all work for ourselves (i.e. we are all independent carvers :-) ). I think it takes more than an IG account and a few pipes under one's belt before they can be an artisan. For me that phrase is synonymous with someone at the top of their craft.
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ToddJohnson
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by ToddJohnson »

I'm just curious to know what #indie #artisans are "independent" from. Who/What is the "Establishment" from whom they have broken free? What yoke of convention have they thrown off so as to be thus emancipated? Is it simply the burdensome shackles of convention, dictating that one should be able to make nice looking, well engineered, pipes before putting them up for sale? As usual, I'm confused.

For being so independent, everyone seems to share a remarkably similar "aesthetic," style of grooming/dress, manner of speech, and promotional philosophy, bruh. Having professed such a strong desire to be separate from whomever they've deemed the "other," I find them to be a peculiarly homogenous group. To me,there seems to be a decidedly bro-heavy traffic jam on the "road less travelled."

It all kinda makes me want to shave my face clean (with a disposable Bic, not a straight razor), flush all my cigars, stop drinking craft beer, and never again make anything with my hands. That's just me, but most of y'all know I've always tried to blend in with the crowd. The idea of being #independent scares me. That gazelle that strays from the pack always gets eaten by the lions on the Discovery channel.

Todd #dependent Johnson
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The Smoking Yeti
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

ToddJohnson wrote:I'm just curious to know what #indie #artisans are "independent" from. Who/What is the "Establishment" from whom they have broken free? What yolk of convention have they thrown off so as to be thus emancipated? Is it simply the burdensome shackles of convention, dictating that one should be able to make nice looking, well engineered, pipes before putting them up for sale? As usual, I'm confused.
I think the source of the #Indie hashtag is from certain consignment shops which offer a better rate than most retailers(Of course the pipes have to SELL first). The fact that these shops operate under different rules than the established successful retailers makes them
"Indie". The logic is that the internet is changing the way business is handled. As such, mediocre business models can be justified by a progressivist argument- you bourgeois pigs just don't get it!

Of course, these arguments have a way of snowballing....

RESIST!

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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by fiddlestix »

Most of us feel the need to stand out of the crowd in one way or another. The pursuit of excellence in any given endeavor is an attempt to separate from the status quo. Most of the time we do it by planting ourselves firmly within some other crowd. In our case, PMF is a good example. Nothing wrong with any of that. The rub, for me anyway, is the need to overstate it. Making crappy pipes and bragging that you're "outside the box" or "indie"... You're just out of the box of well made pipes and in the box of poorly made pipes.

I wanna be like you guys, and I'm not ashamed to admit it! :)

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caskwith
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by caskwith »

I may get a load of shit for this but I'm going to say it anyway, does it have to be high-grade? I mean is it ok just to strive to make a good value mid-grade pipe?

When I first starting making pipes I did it for fun because I loved tinkering with things and I loved pipes, combine the two and you get pipe making. I knew very early on however that I would never be the worlds greatest pipe maker but I always hoped I could be a "good" pipe maker and at the very least I would like to make the best "English" pipes I can and something better than the factories produce. I do try and make every pipe as good I can make it, but I also know my limitations, I have seen very talented makers quickly over take my level of skill. For instance I remember meeting Nate at Chicago where he showed me his first pipe or two made at the seminar, at that time I was already a full time maker and pretty proud of what I was making, well look at Nate now, his pipes kick my ass that's for sure. I continue to plod along making steady progress I think and my customers seem to like what I make and come back again for more.
I know I'll never be able to make pipes as good as ToddJ or many other pipemakers here and I'm ok with that, I'm also not asking 4 figures for my work. What I do produce I think is good value for the buyer and represents a well made product that I have put many hundreds If not thousands of hours in working on, I make enough money to support myself and while it may not be the best paid job in the world it certainly is the most fun (most of the time, haha) I could have and still call it work.
I guess what I am saying is that I think it is ok to aspire to make "good pipes" and I hope that isn't seen as diminishing the craft.
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

caskwith wrote: I guess what I am saying is that I think it is ok to aspire to make "good pipes" and I hope that isn't seen as diminishing the craft.
I completely agree with you Chris! I think we all would. You make an excellent pipe for your price- sure if you were charging $1000+ it'd be a different story. You have respect for your customers and produce well made pipes and offer them at a fair price. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, in fact, it's the core value we're trying to promote. Respect your customers, respect the craft, whatever price point.

We aren't saying everybody should try to be a high-grade maker, just that everybody should be trying to do their best and asking a fair price for the product.

P.s.

I really like the princes you have been making lately!
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WCannoy
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by WCannoy »

ToddJohnson wrote:For being so independent, everyone seems to share a remarkably similar "aesthetic," style of grooming/dress, manner of speech, and promotional philosophy, bruh. Having professed such a strong desire to be separate from whomever they've deemed the "other," I find them to be a peculiarly homogenous group. To me,there seems to be a decidedly bro-heavy traffic jam on the "road less travelled."
Todd, I like you... more and more with each post.

Don't you still owe me a drink? Chicago in may... I'll probably have a Coke.
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by ToddJohnson »

caskwith wrote:What I do produce I think is good value for the buyer and represents a well made product that I have put many hundreds If not thousands of hours in working on, I make enough money to support myself and while it may not be the best paid job in the world it certainly is the most fun (most of the time, haha) I could have and still call it work.
I guess what I am saying is that I think it is ok to aspire to make "good pipes" and I hope that isn't seen as diminishing the craft.
You Chris, are a pipemaker! That's plain enough to see. I think what you're calling "good pipes" I would call "excellent pipes in the $XXX price category." All you Englishmen need to learn to speak Colonial-ese.

TJ
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by ToddJohnson »

WCannoy wrote:
ToddJohnson wrote:For being so independent, everyone seems to share a remarkably similar "aesthetic," style of grooming/dress, manner of speech, and promotional philosophy, bruh. Having professed such a strong desire to be separate from whomever they've deemed the "other," I find them to be a peculiarly homogenous group. To me,there seems to be a decidedly bro-heavy traffic jam on the "road less travelled."
Todd, I like you... more and more with each post.

Don't you still owe me a drink? Chicago in may... I'll probably have a Coke.
Sure enough. I will probably have a cup of some #indie #artisan's signature beard oil.

TJ
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by caskwith »

ToddJohnson wrote:
caskwith wrote:What I do produce I think is good value for the buyer and represents a well made product that I have put many hundreds If not thousands of hours in working on, I make enough money to support myself and while it may not be the best paid job in the world it certainly is the most fun (most of the time, haha) I could have and still call it work.
I guess what I am saying is that I think it is ok to aspire to make "good pipes" and I hope that isn't seen as diminishing the craft.
You Chris, are a pipemaker! That's plain enough to see. I think what you're calling "good pipes" I would call "excellent pipes in the $XXX price category." All you Englishmen need to learn to speak Colonial-ese.

TJ

So what you are saying is I need to double my prices right now? :lol:

Thanks for the vote of confidence though, aside from one other pipe maker and the occasional visitor I am essentially alone in a crowd of people that have no idea what I am talking about or trying to achieve. PMF is a wonderful resource but it is pretty useless at helping place oneself in the grand pipemaking scheme (not that I think I should do this by the way). It's a great place to learn what is good and what isn't, how to do certain techniques and get some good feedback on the actual pipes, the market place and the outside world are a whole different ball game with a huge number of factors to take into account.

Oh and I think Colonial-ese is a laxative over here.
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by sandahlpipe »

caskwith wrote:
Oh and I think Colonial-ese is a laxative over here.
Whatever helps you make those British Pipe Turds. :-D
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by Tyler »

[I've had this saved as a draft for about a week. Now that this thread is "going viral" in other forums, for lack of a better description, I decided to post it.]

I'm not convinced of a few things in this thread. Help me understand.

Why do we consider the current pipe making situation a boom? Maybe it is, but a boom implies a bubble that will burst, resulting in a bust. Isn't it possible that we just see growth (likely due to education and availability on the web)? Or, even more strange, little to no grown, merely visibility? We can SEE the sales (online) so there's a perception of more growth than there really is? B&M's are going out of business right and left, and sales are moving online and are more visible. All of this board combined (Todd's venture excluded) probably sell (way) less than 2,000 pipes a year. That's not a lot of sales. But we see and talk about them, and that was impossible 15 years ago. (Yes, pipe tobacco sales have surged, but that is largely explained, as I understand it, by the re-labeling of roll-your-own cigarette tobacco in order to evade taxes. Also a bust is certainly possible as a result of legislation, but that is different than a cycle of interest.)

Secondly, it's assumed in this thread that the social media crowd is bad for pipes and pipe making. Why? People buying second-rate stuff for (near) first-rate prices is, I would argue, normal not abnormal. If you involve yourself beyond a superficial level in almost any endeavor, you regularly see that the majority of consumers do not buy the highest quality, even when it is no more expensive (or at least not prohibitively so). They buy what's convenient, what they are aware of, or what is popular and puts them in the "in" crowd. I'm thinking here of computers, hunting gear, guns, cigars, beer, etc.. Though I'm sure there are bad experiences that put people off of certain good all together, generally, people trying things is better than them not trying them. The hobby grows as a result.

I get the frustration of seeing $300 lumps fly off the pages of social media hounds if you can't sell your pipes, but is anyone here really facing that? Does anyone have a drawer with 8 or 9 exquisite pipes in it that they can't sell? I doubt it. There might be some mediocre pipes in there, but that's the whole thing isn't it? How do we get better, quit making mediocre pipes, and develop a market for what we make? And if you do have a few pipes that haven't sold, if you go to a show or two, meet some people, make some friends, maybe develop a social media presence of some sort, they'll sell. I promise. After a few years of that, they'll sell fast because you have developed a market.

I think a guild could be fun and helpful, especially as an educational tool. It would also be a great marketing tool. Being a member would (presumably) communicate a level of expertise and quality that would bring comfort to the buyer. However, as a defensive measure against poor pipes, meh, I don't see it. It simply sounds like a organization of "us" and "them", and that is crappy. Especially if this thread is the birth of such organization because this thread is already an "us" versus "them". (Though I'm not sure how to define "us" and "them".)

Bottom line, I just don't understand being bitter over someone else's success. Good for them. As I've mentioned a bajillion times, we're selling more than pipes. We are selling an experience. The pipe is a key component of that, but not as much as we as pipe makers might like to think. The social media guys have this wired. They sell what amounts to memberships into the club of their pipe making persona. Good for them. Again, why does anyone get bent out of shape about that? I'm not convinced this is a finite economy. No one is stealing your piece of the pie. Go make the pie bigger, and cut off your own big slice. (In fact, this is in some ways exactly what the social media hounds are doing.)
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Re: Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

Post by LatakiaLover »

The reason Todd's stance didn't receive much pushback on this forum and has unleashed the Hounds of Hell on Kevin Godbee's is because (for obvious reasons) he named no names, identified no brands, and posted no pictures of the "offending" merchandise. As a result, the reader got to fill in the blank.

A couple pages back I said:
As a general thing, humans decide what they want or like FIRST according to what "feels right" or serves their self-interest, then deal with the attendant facts AFTERWARD, championing those which support their decision, and rejecting, denying, burying, distorting, etc. those which don't.
I should have added, "according to what feels right, serves their self interest, or falls within the realm of their personal experience, then deal with...(etc)"

Because, as pipe makers, we understood---and tended to agree with---what Todd was referring to because we "heard" him talking about double-drilled airways, clunky stems, thin spots in the chamber wall, varnish finishes, and so forth. Poor execution.

The general smokers on Kevin's board, though, "heard" what Todd was saying as an attack on anyone who makes and sells pipes that wears a beard, is under 30, and has an Instagram account. Everything except a technical context.

What a mess.

The moral of the story? if you're going to criticize, be specific, or people at large will see themselves in it somehow.
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