Gota - this one's for me!

[bscofield]

I call this one: Gota

This is my first pipe that I made shaping first and then drilling. In this case it's pretty obvious that I wanted to experiment with making an asymmetrical shape without having to worry about already drilled airways.

In my own defense I have to say that this pipe was not easy to photograph! Because it's curved the way it is what would normally get you a decent side profile did not really capture the side profile of the pipe because the shank is bent to the side and so is the stem. So on my side shots I end up showing a mixture of the wall of the bowl and the protruding line as though they were one. Anyway... I noticed this after taking the pics and then it was late and went to bed

I know it's got a few issues but you all know how it goes when your making/finishing a pipe for yourselves...

Here is the pipe:

[KurtHuhn]

Looking good, Ben. Normally I would expect the stem to flow back in the opposite direction. Without holding the pipe in my hands, I can't be sure of how it works as it presently is, but the pictures seem to indicate an unsettling shape.

Let me explain....

When you make an asymmetrical shape, what you're actually trying to do is generate interest and movement, not really make it completely asymmetrical. You still want balance and harmony, so you have to create offsets in the pipe - yins and yangs. So if you bend the shank one direction, the stem should offset that and bend back the other, providing balance and harmony.

I absolutely hate using my own pipes as examples of this, it seems a little presumptuous, but I'm currently too lazy to find another example, so I'll use this one I made a while back.

In this photo you can see what I'm taking about concerning the shank and stem balance. Where the shank goes one direction, the stem counteracts the asymmetry and comes back to the center:


And this photo shows the overall movement of the pipe with a balancing point that runs roughly right down the center of the bowl, shank, and stem. Everything crosses and comes back to the center of the pipe like a stretched out sine wave:


On your pipe, with the stem bent the way that it is, the shape lacks balance and it *feels* out of balance. Like that feeling you get when you're just about to fall over, you know it, and you can't do anything to stop it. You know what I mean?

But there's good news!! After looking at the photos over and over, I think that you can easily introduce harmony by simply changing the direction of the stem to bend back across the center of the pipe. That will introduce balance, create a lot more movement, and the pipe will be much more harmonious.

I hope that helps, and I also hope I didn't come across too strong.

[bscofield]

Kurt... you didn't come across too strong.

I understand the point that your making. My problem is I have no artistic training whatsoever... So when I look at your pipe and my pipe I see 2 asymmetrical pipes where we just chose to finish them off in a different way. I'll be honest, I don't understand asymmetry. I just simply tried to make it curve and then finished the stem to match the curve.

So help me out... are we talking subjectively here?

At some point I saw someone do an explanation of a pipe of Tokutomi where he had a pipe that took the form of your's: bent in one direction and then came back to the center before the stem ended. He was speaking of his training under Ivarsson and explained that while his shapes took a different life than Ivarsson's, he still maintained a 'straight' line (which was drawn on the picture of the pipe). This line sort of showed what your talking about, I guess. Again my problem is I look at it and I don't see out of balance or balance in either of them. I see that your's comes back and essentially has that "line" from bowl to stem, without the shape adhering to it. Is that what we're talking about?

[LatakiaLover]

Numerous studies have been made concerning how and why humans are universally drawn to symmetry. Experiments show that newborns gravitate toward it long before any sort of training or cultural influences muddy the water, for example. It is amazing to watch, and absolutely consistent.

The most popular explanation is that symmetry in nature implies organic health, and so it has become an evolutionary characteristic.

I think anyone who tries to swim against the current regarding such a deep-seated preference is making things needlessly difficult for himself. There are masters who create successful asymmetrical pipe designs, of course, but they are rare. (Successful meaning commercially viable.)

Bottom line: As a learning exercise for student carvers, they are great; as a "new invention," not so much. Unless masterfully executed in perspective-tricking and visually delightful ways, they simply look wrong.

[bscofield]

I think anyone who tries to swim against the current regarding such a deep-seated preference is making things needlessly difficult for himself.

If you are talking about simply making an asymmetrical pipe then I disagree whole-heartedly. If one gravitates towards the style, as style which is actually quite popular among collectors who favor more modern styles, then I do not at all think that they are making things needlessly difficult. It's a style in and of itself and pipes are either asymmetrical or not -- not to be looked as a pipe that could have been symmetrical but made difficult by being asymmetrical.

Bottom line: As a learning exercise for student carvers, they are great; as a "new invention," not so much. Unless masterfully executed in perspective-tricking and visually delightful ways, they simply look wrong.

As for "new invention" I'm not sure what you're referring to. If it's the concept that Kurt and I are discussing then I would add that no one is attempting a "new invention" but it simply falls into my above questions regarding asymmetry.

As for "masterfully executed or simply look wrong" I'd say that the same could apply to a plethora of shapes... but I mostly disagree with this as well.

[LatakiaLover]

Ben --

I guess the issue boils down to artistic exercise vs. commercial viability.

If the former, anything goes. By definition, there's no right or wrong. If the latter, it's easily settled: put the pipe on Ebay and see what someone is willing to pay for it.

People post photo sets of their pipes here for feedback, yes? You CAN'T disagree with what people tell you under those conditions. Or maybe more to the point, if you feel the urge to do so, maybe you should re-think what you really hope to get from the exercise.

[bscofield]

Ben --

I guess the issue boils down to artistic exercise vs. commercial viability.

If the former, anything goes. By definition, there's no right or wrong. If the latter, it's easily settled: put the pipe on Ebay and see what someone is willing to pay for it.

People post pics of their pipes here for feedback, yes? You CAN'T disagree with what people tell you under those conditions. Or maybe more to the point, if you feel the urge to when you get the comments you claim to seek, maybe you should re-think what you really hope to get from the exercise.

Well since Ebay and the rest of the pipe community rides as much on (if not more so) name and reputation that would be a senseless test.

I don't see that those that post post pipes on here need not dispute what is said about the pipes. And in all honesty I only felt the need to disagree because your opinion which was stated as fact, was in regard to a very broad topic (not just my pipe, but things were stated about asymmetricals in general if I didn't misunderstand). I think that my disagreement is no way different than any other critic that would come on and disagree with what was stated about a pipe that you critique.

Incidentally, as I read back through my post I believe that I said little or nothing in regard to my own pipe - other than saying that I was still confused as to the 'symmetry' of the asymmetrical pipe. As such I don't believe that I came back and added comments in defense of my pipe. Just to your point that appeared to me to say that asymmetricals are generally unpopular.

As for not disagreeing with the critiques offered I'll say this: I have never had the intention of showing a pipe on here and accepting critiques without the option of commenting in return. I never knew that was the expectation. I fully expect the pipe maker to disagree with any of my critiques as he see fits, and to post as much as well. That is why when I express my thoughts on a pipe I do so as opinion to make sure that people understand that disagreement on the topic is normally and expected, as art in general subjective.

[KurtHuhn]

Kurt... you didn't come across too strong.

Thank goodness! Part of the reason why I don't post too many critiques is because I'm afraid of injuring someone's psyche. Must be the buddhism I've been studying recently....

I understand the point that your making. My problem is I have no artistic training whatsoever... So when I look at your pipe and my pipe I see 2 asymmetrical pipes where we just chose to finish them off in a different way. I'll be honest, I don't understand asymmetry. I just simply tried to make it curve and then finished the stem to match the curve.

So help me out... are we talking subjectively here?

Well, the problem with subjectivity is that it's so subjective.

However, there are established rules for artistic expression. Someone with formal training could probably expound on that subject with much more clarity than I can. The extent of my formal training is highschool art classes and some architecture in college. Neither really got into theory and hardcore design attributes.

I'm not sure how to explain it. When I look at a piece that's completely out of symmetry, I get an uneasy feeling like I explained above. When I see something in *balance* despite it's asymmetry, I get very relaxed feeling - I feel the harmony in the piece.

I know that sounds about as kooky as anything I've ever said. Probably right up there with my disdain of professional sports. But it's sort of how I know a shape is going to "work".

Anyway, while it can be subjective, it can also be described. Asymmetry in a piece of art simply means "not identical on both sides". It doesn't mean "out of balance". What you're striving for is that balance. And it doesn't mean that you have to make nothing but billiards and bulldogs.

The end result is that you're actually making a symmetrical piece, but symmetrical in a much more complex way than simply having each side be a mirror image of each other. If you have "weight" on one side, you need to counteract it with "weight" on the other - but maybe you can adjust it towards the front or back, top or bottom, and vary the size based on the other elements surrounding it. It's very difficult to pull off, and I make of claims as to being an expert.

Here's a page that offers a real quick primer:
http://www.artsconnected.org/toolkit/en ... metry.html

For instance, I have a knife blade that, despite it's small size is very blade-heavy (in looks, not actual weight). But I'm going to counter that with the handle material, and use some tricks at the ricasso area to make the handle appear longer - introducing visual balance.

At some point I saw someone do an explanation of a pipe of Tokutomi where he had a pipe that took the form of your's: bent in one direction and then came back to the center before the stem ended. He was speaking of his training under Ivarsson and explained that while his shapes took a different life than Ivarsson's, he still maintained a 'straight' line (which was drawn on the picture of the pipe). This line sort of showed what your talking about, I guess. Again my problem is I look at it and I don't see out of balance or balance in either of them. I see that your's comes back and essentially has that "line" from bowl to stem, without the shape adhering to it. Is that what we're talking about?

That's it exactly. Keep everything revolving around the centerline of the pipe, without necessarily being bound to it. You can even have elements "orbit" the centerline while maintaining balance and flow.

[KurtHuhn]

I think anyone who tries to swim against the current regarding such a deep-seated preference is making things needlessly difficult for himself. There are masters who create successful asymmetrical pipe designs, of course, but they are rare. (Successful meaning commercially viable.)

Bottom line: As a learning exercise for student carvers, they are great; as a "new invention," not so much. Unless masterfully executed in perspective-tricking and visually delightful ways, they simply look wrong.

I think there might be some confusion concerning the term "asymmetrical". See my post in reply to Ben. It doesn't mean "out of balance", it's just a method for introducing movement and visual interest. Truly asymmetrical pieces tend to be visually unappealing, but pieces with "asymmetrical balance" can be some of the most interesting and exciting things to look at.

I had a chance a few years ago to handle an "asymmetrical" pipe by Todd Johnson, and that's where I learned that "asymmetrical" is anything but! Any way you turned that pipe, it was different left to right and top to bottom - but it was always in balance. It was the most interesting pipe I had ever laid eyes on. It was also the start of my understanding of the use of asymmetry in artistic pieces.

[LatakiaLover]

Ben --

You missed my point. You are, of course, free to push back any way you want, as much as you want, regarding anything said on this or any other forum.

What I was referring to was if the point of posting work for comment is to learn stuff and hopefully improve it, you must simply let the comments flow. As with a brainstorming session. You might not agree with a word anyone says, but that is (should be, anyway) a separate thing, and should be dealt with at a separate time.

Should be if you hope to receive much of it beyond the, "Gee, that's great!" sort of stuff, anyway.

Look back through the Gallery sets. There are two kinds of feedback: Praise and silence (either literal or semantic.) Neither of which is very useful. If you want to fill in the silence, then let it happen. If not, that's OK too, but a "please don't comment truthfully" flag should be set, or something. Otherwise everyone is working at cross purposes and just wasting time.

[LatakiaLover]

I think there might be some confusion concerning the term "asymmetrical". See my post in reply to Ben. It doesn't mean "out of balance", it's just a method for introducing movement and visual interest. Truly asymmetrical pieces tend to be visually unappealing, but pieces with "asymmetrical balance" can be some of the most interesting and exciting things to look at.

I had a chance a few years ago to handle an "asymmetrical" pipe by Todd Johnson, and that's where I learned that "asymmetrical" is anything but! Any way you turned that pipe, it was different left to right and top to bottom - but it was always in balance. It was the most interesting pipe I had ever laid eyes on. It was also the start of my understanding of the use of asymmetry in artistic pieces.

Absolutely spot-on. Only when apparent asymmetry is somehow "worked" to actually BE symmetrical, does it fly. Or, another way to put it is a pipe that looks to be asymmetrical on first glance, but actually isn't.

That's the subliminal thing I was referring to, and pulling it off takes great artistic skill.

A horseshoe-shaped pipe doesn't meet the criteria. A few people might be attracted to such a thing for its novelty value, but that's about it, I suspect.

[bscofield]

Ben --

You missed my point. You are, of course, free to push back any way you want, as much as you want, regarding anything said on this or any other forum.

Isn't this in disagreement with this:

You might not agree with a word anyone says, but that is (should be, anyway) a separate thing, and should be dealt with at a separate time.

Regardles... we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO, there is not better time to discuss (which entails disagreeing) than at the time of the post. That's when everyone else will be seeing the pipe and seeing the discussion.

Look back through the Gallery sets.

I was here when the gallery was created. I know how it goes. And I feel that responses to any of the comments are fine and should be had during the duscussion when/where they benefit everyone. I trust that, since I have posted dozens of pipes here over the last 4 years, people know exactly how I feel about the critique I receive.

[LatakiaLover]

Ben --

You missed my point. You are, of course, free to push back any way you want, as much as you want, regarding anything said on this or any other forum.

Isn't this in disagreement with this:

You might not agree with a word anyone says, but that is (should be, anyway) a separate thing, and should be dealt with at a separate time.

Regardles... we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO, there is not better time to discuss (which entails disagreeing) than at the time of the post. That's when everyone else will be seeing the pipe and seeing the discussion.

Look back through the Gallery sets.

I was here when the gallery was created. I know how it goes. And I feel that responses to any of the comments are fine and should be had during the duscussion when/where they benefit everyone. I trust that, since I have posted dozens of pipes here over the last 4 years, people know exactly how I feel about the critique I receive.

Ben --

Replace "separate time" with "appropriate time" in the apparent contradiction, OK? You know exactly what I meant, and are now just playing at debate.

On a critique submission. <sigh>

All I can say is you proved the point I was trying to make. People lose their inclination to comment on your stuff because of exactly this sort of thing. I certainly have, and I'm sure you'd be disappointed to learn who some others are, too.

Oh well, I tried.

[Frank]

I can fully empathize with Ben, since I'm also one of those "I don't undertsand art, but I know what I like" type of people. For me personally, creative design comes hard. Having an "eye" for placing symmetry within asymmetry or vice versa is something that tends to elude me, for the most part. Perhaps this is also where Ben is at, to a certain degree.

By the same token, I fully understand Kurt's explanation of the symmetry of the item as a whole, within an asymmetrical piece.

[bscofield]

Ben --

Replace "separate time" with "appropriate time" in the apparent contradiction, OK? You know exactly what I meant, and are now just playing at debate.

I wasn't talking about the word you used. I guess I would need clarification on when the appropriate time to respond to a critique is...

All I can say is you proved the point I was trying to make. People lose their inclination to comment on your stuff because of exactly this sort of thing. I certainly have, and I'm sure you'd be disappointed to learn who some others are, too.

Well I suppose only time will tell. Like I said earlier, I've been posting on pipes on here for 4 years and have, other than this, had great interchanges with people. I doubt that too many people will have problems giving me feedback in the future...

[LatakiaLover]

Well I suppose only time will tell. Like I said earlier, I've been posting on pipes on here for 4 years and have, other than this, had great interchanges with people. I doubt that too many people will have problems giving me feedback in the future...

You are not getting it, Ben... the reason for the kid gloves and "great interchanges" is because anything more substantive gets mired in pushback. There's a Happy Filter already in place.

I KNOW there is. I'm not speculating. There are some carvers of significant accomplishment who watch this board, and your name comes up semi-regularly. The reason you don't hear from them is because they don't want/need the frustration and heartburn.

I've already received several emails about this thread, in fact, saying, "Why do you bother George? Most of those guys ask for comments, and then just argue with you."

[KurtHuhn]

I can fully empathize with Ben, since I'm also one of those "I don't undertsand art, but I know what I like" type of people. For me personally, creative design comes hard. Having an "eye" for placing symmetry within asymmetry or vice versa is something that tends to elude me, for the most part. Perhaps this is also where Ben is at, to a certain degree.

I used to be basically the same way, then something clicked in my brain. I make no claims on being an artist or even very knowledgeable about art, but I'm getting better (I think ).

The best thing I ever did was resort back to my engineering nature and start deconstructing the pipes I really liked into their constituent pieces and figure out what parts really seem to provide the "feel" that I like. Then I try to reuse those elements in pipes I make.

[kbadkar]

Anyway, while it can be subjective, it can also be described. Asymmetry in a piece of art simply means "not identical on both sides". It doesn't mean "out of balance". What you're striving for is that balance. And it doesn't mean that you have to make nothing but billiards and bulldogs.

I think the concept of balance doesn't need to be a a theoretical one. Especially in pipes "as art", form must follow function. Since this is a pipe for your personal enjoyment, you can "test" balance while smoking it. If the bit wants to twist in your mouth, the "weight" isn't centered. I think this concrete definition of balance is the minimum requirement for an asymetrical piece.

[KurtHuhn]

I've already received several emails about this thread, in fact, saying, "Why do you bother George? Most of those guys ask for comments, and then just argue with you."

Well, you have to admit, George, you came across a bit strong. While your assertions about asymmetry may be correct, you failed to "help" in your first post. You didn't offer any constructive critisism, just assertions that seemed to indicate that Ben's efforts were a waste of time.

Maybe you're getting silent backup from other carvers, maybe not - I'm not going to speculate on that. What I will suggest is that, the use of nebulous assertions like the above is probably the oldest trick in online forums and interchanges. It carries little weight with folks that have been around online for any length of time, and doesn't help the position of the person that uses it.

Go back and read my posts, then read yours. See the difference?

[KurtHuhn]

I think the concept of balance doesn't need to be a a theoretical one. Especially in pipes "as art", form must follow function. Since this is a pipe for your personal enjoyment, you can "test" balance while smoking it. If the bit wants to twist in your mouth, the "weight" isn't centered. I think this concrete definition of balance is the minimum requirement for an asymetrical piece.

That's a good way of looking at it! Actual balance of mass is very helpful for a pipe or other functional object. You can use that to help guide the offsets created when you play with asymmetry.