How thin is thin enough- Shellac

The Smoking Yeti · Post by **The Smoking Yeti** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:46 pm

Alright, so I've heard tales of sealing the top coat of shellac in a contrast stain via shellac *gasp*. Now, my question, is how thin do we want said shellac? Do we want to even be able to see it? Should it just be a thin shiny shell? Or after the shellac dries should the wood look almost the same? I think I may have my shellac too thinned out right now, when it goes on you cannot even tell there was ever shellac. The last thing I want is to take my hard work to the tripoli and have my yellow all buff off. Help!

DMI · Post by **DMI** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:58 pm

Are you using the same type (spirit/water) of dye for both colours?

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:29 pm

There is so much misinformation and bullshit out there with regards to shellac. Unless it's another pipe maker telling you something about it, you should probably disregard every word. If it IS a pipe maker, take it all with a grain of salt.

The way you apply shellac to a smooth pipe is to quickly wipe it on, count to about 7, then wipe it all off again. This leaves only a teensy amount on the wood, and it's really just there to help lock the stain in place and provide a consistent surface for your final finishing. You still need to polish and buff on carnuba - which is what makes the pipe shiny.

In terms of the relative viscosity of shellac? I dunno. I redneck it. I take a half-pint mason jar, pour in flakes to fill it most of the way, then pour denatured alcohol up to the headspace line (to cover the flakes). Seems to work for me.

You do not want to have a "shell" finish of shellac on a smooth pipe. It will wear unevenly (all finishes wear) and look like utter crap, especially on heavily used pipes.

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:12 pm

I wipe it on super thin, let it dry, and then grind/polish with tripoli.

It's .... just barely there, when it's dry.

archaggelosmichail · Post by **archaggelosmichail** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:43 pm

When it comes to smooth pipes, what type of shellac cut, do you use?

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:09 pm

I've had success taking a 5 lb cut and diluting it by probably 3 or 4 times, so I'd guess I'm talking about a 1 lb cut or less.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:37 pm

That's my guess as well. I think Todd J. suggested that cut several years ago, so that's roughly what I use.

longneckers · Post by **longneckers** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:21 am

Shellac < bug shit finish is not durable other finishes are.

hard finishes can yellow, chip and scratch, but they show the wood grain the best and protect the wood. But dont do well with heat.

Longneckers

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:47 am

Shellac melts at around 65 degrees C - far too hot to touch. So if anyone "melts" the finish on a pipe, they've burnt the inside of the bowl most likely.

There are certainly more durable finishes, and lots of them are reasonably compatible with pipe making. And you can slop a heavy coat of varathane on your next pipe if you don't like bug shit, longneckers, and just see how the customer likes it.

I think it's pretty important to note that no one is doing a "shellac finish" - french polishing a pipe is basically impossible. What we are suggesting is that some kind of hardening impregnator needs to be used to set the stain on a pipe.

staffwalker · Post by **staffwalker** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:13 pm

Sasquatch wrote:
I think it's pretty important to note that no one is doing a "shellac finish" - french polishing a pipe is basically impossible. What we are suggesting is that some kind of hardening impregnator needs to be used to set the stain on a pipe.

Sorry, I don't buy it. All you guys who maintain you are using Shellac but are doing so solely to set the stain should be in politics. You are experts at 'double-talk'. Why don't we all be honest and simply state, "I use Shellac because it leaves a superior shine, one I can get no other way". A table at a show with a bunch of 'shiny' pipes draws customers and sales. bob gilbert

Post by **Tyler** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:40 pm

Well, I don't think that's true Bob. I haven't used shellac in quite some time, so I don't really have a dog in the hunt, but I wouldn't get a better shine when I used it.

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:50 pm

Bob I think the difference you're not indicating here is that there's such a thing as a shellac finish, where you apply layer after layer of shellac and are constantly re-dissolving the lower layers and sort of polishing as you go, and you wind up with umpteen layers of shellac and it's shiny as hell. Let's call this French Polish. What's going on with the pipes is nothing like that.

Yeah, I get a shinier finish when I use shellac, and that's because it offers a very smooth base for the wax, and has done some microscopic fill work on the wood, leaving a very smooth surface after polishing. But the amount of shellac on the pipe after the polish is.... god, it's miniscule.

Like Tyler (and probably totally unlike Tyler) I have moved away from shellac in a lot of applications too.

But if you are topstaining, you need to get the stain to stay on/in the wood, it's that simple. Yeah, there's another benefit - it makes shining the pipe up that much easier, so what's not to like?

SimeonTurner · Post by **SimeonTurner** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:51 pm

Sasquatch wrote: so what's not to like?

Apparently the fact that it's bug shit. Of course, if that's a problem for you, you're probably not going to be terribly thrilled about some of the other things involved with making/smoking a pipe.

Me, personally, I'll rub bug shit smothered in Rad's shit all over a pipe if it'll make it look/smoke better. I do draw the line at Ernie's shit though...a man's got to have principles.

staffwalker · Post by **staffwalker** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:18 pm

Sasquatch wrote:Bob I think the difference you're not indicating here is that there's such a thing as a shellac finish, where you apply layer after layer of shellac and are constantly re-dissolving the lower layers and sort of polishing as you go, and you wind up with umpteen layers of shellac and it's shiny as hell. Let's call this French Polish. What's going on with the pipes is nothing like that.

Yeah, I get a shinier finish when I use shellac, and that's because it offers a very smooth base for the wax, and has done some microscopic fill work on the wood, leaving a very smooth surface after polishing. But the amount of shellac on the pipe after the polish is.... god, it's miniscule.

Like Tyler (and probably totally unlike Tyler) I have moved away from shellac in a lot of applications too.

But if you are topstaining, you need to get the stain to stay on/in the wood, it's that simple. Yeah, there's another benefit - it makes shining the pipe up that much easier, so what's not to like?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against using Shellac. I tried it for a year or so and finally stopped altogether, not because I had a moral reason to do so but because I never found a method of applying which didn't, (at times), leave streaks, overlaps and bubbles. I have found extra buffing with brown Tripoli will produce a shine without Shellac. It takes me a couple extra hours to do so, however. I haven't used Shellac on smooths for two years or so. Just for the record, I have never had a problem with losing a topcoat with normal buffing. In order to buff off the topcoat, one would have to really bear down. Perhaps that's why I think using that as an excuse is 'double-talk'. No offense intended. bob gilbert

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:23 pm

None taken, and in re-reading your post originally, I thought "Ya know, he didn't say he was against it..."

I stopped using shellac for similar reasons on my smooths. I found a weird water based emulsion that I have been having very good results with. Shellac in any quanitity can melt, rib, bump, pull etc under heavy buffing, and that's a drag.

What's neat is there's a hundred ways to get a good shine, and as far as I can tell, they all involve sanding really thoroughly at 220.

scotties22 · Post by **scotties22** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:24 pm

And now of the dumb blonde question of the day......What brand of shellac does everyone use? Just curious, I guess.

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:37 pm

Any flake shellac will do. Dissolve in methyl alc.

Stay away from Zinsser from Home Depot etc - it's full of weird propanols and stuff, not very "pure".

longneckers · Post by **longneckers** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:32 pm

Sasquatch wrote:Shellac melts at around 65 degrees C - far too hot to touch. So if anyone "melts" the finish on a pipe, they've burnt the inside of the bowl most likely.

There are certainly more durable finishes, and lots of them are reasonably compatible with pipe making. And you can slop a heavy coat of varathane on your next pipe if you don't like bug shit, longneckers, and just see how the customer likes it.

I think it's pretty important to note that no one is doing a "shellac finish" - french polishing a pipe is basically impossible. What we are suggesting is that some kind of hardening impregnator needs to be used to set the stain on a pipe.

HI Sasquatch

The wood in the picture i posted had a shellac primer coat before I slopped varathane on it.

But it is not varathane .
But if i could slop varathane on there and make it look that good I would.

My last slop job went for 375.00

Your slam was rude

Longneckers

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:34 am

Well Longneckers, you're entitled to your opinion. Everything in your first post was technically correct, and totally irrelevant to the discussion being had.

Those who use shellac here do so for many reasons, those who eschew it do not do so because it's "bug shit".

The finish you got on whatever it is you posted is glorious - looks like a tool handle? And what happens when pipe collectors find out that it's acrylic, varathane, epoxy enamel, or whatever the hell it is, is they'll say "Oh, that's not a good finish for a pipe." and they won't buy it.

So do as you please, finish as you please, but please understand that showing up here, making your what, 10th post? and basically telling us all that we're doing it wrong is ... not that welcome, to be honest. If you have a method and a material that you feel is superior, let's discuss it. But your post was nothing like that, it was a slap and dash job, designed to show us all that you are a superior wood finisher.

Here's an idea. Go make a pipe!

longneckers · Post by **longneckers** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:15 am

Sasquatch wrote:Well Longneckers, you're entitled to your opinion. Everything in your first post was technically correct, and totally irrelevant to the discussion being had.

Those who use shellac here do so for many reasons, those who eschew it do not do so because it's "bug shit".

The finish you got on whatever it is you posted is glorious - looks like a tool handle? And what happens when pipe collectors find out that it's acrylic, varathane, epoxy enamel, or whatever the hell it is, is they'll say "Oh, that's not a good finish for a pipe." and they won't buy it.

So do as you please, finish as you please, but please understand that showing up here, making your what, 10th post? and basically telling us all that we're doing it wrong is ... not that welcome, to be honest. If you have a method and a material that you feel is superior, let's discuss it. But your post was nothing like that, it was a slap and dash job, designed to show us all that you are a superior wood finisher.

Here's an idea. Go make a pipe!

Well here is #11 post

How did i say everyone was doing it wrong ?
my 10th post OMG I have been

again
All I was showing was a finished product and shellac was used .
The picture was a No bs here it is a finished product . I thought it looked good for being slopped on. well light up and chill "there" pipes and they were made to enjoy life.
longneckers

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