metal lathe

Discussions of tools wether you bought them or made them yourself. Anything from screwdrivers to custom chucks and drilling rigs.
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android
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Post by android »

wow, that was a bigger response than i expected! :D

thanks for your thoughts.

i enjoy looking for/researching tools and you guys have given me a bunch of fodder. i doubt seriously that i'll end up with a metal lathe anytime soon, but it's still fun to look. plus, i already own a jet 1014I for my woodworking and that has served me well so far with the limited pipemaking i've tried. i'm sure it will satiate my needs for now.

with patience and thorough searching, i'm sure the right old-school, beastly metal lathe will come my way. :shock:

thanks again.
pierredekat

Post by pierredekat »

Frank wrote:Verr-yy nifty, indeed. :idea: I've been doing it the other way around with a drill bit in the draught hole to provide a friction drive.
Well, thanks, Frank. :D
Frank wrote:Couple of questions : Is the rubber stopper glued to the wood :?:
No, I just did a taper inside the cup comparable to the taper of the stopper and poked it in there.
Frank wrote:How do I figure out that darn morse taper angle :?: I have a compound angle tool holder, but I still can't get the taper spot on.
Well, I just did mine freehand with chisels. :lol:

Image

Basically, I had this spur center laying around that I never use -- see picture -- and I tried to mimic that.

But according to Wikipedia, the large diameters and angles for Morse tapers are:

# ----- Dia. ----- Angle
0 ---- .356" ---- 1°29'27"
1 ---- .475" ---- 1°25'43"
2 ---- .700" ---- 1°25'50"
3 ---- .938" ---- 1°26'16"
4 --- 1.231" ---- 1°29'15"
5 --- 1.748" ---- 1°30'26"
6 --- 2.494" ---- 1°29'36"
7 --- 3.270" ---- 1°29'22"
I also have a live centre with interchangeable centres, but it's neither morse nor jacobs taper. I'm still trying to figure out the taper of that thingy so I can custom turn my own centres, like one where the centre fits into the draught hole, thus reducing the chance of cracking/splitting the tenon.
You might check into some of the other tapers on that Wikipedia page and see if any of the other tapers are a match. Otherwise, I guess you just have to try a lot of trial-and-error. It might be that they have their own custom taper.
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android
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Post by android »

robert, that is a nice idea. do you ever use that setup to turn a rough shape on your stem or are you just using it to modify preformed stems?
pierredekat

Post by pierredekat »

android wrote:robert, that is a nice idea. do you ever use that setup to turn a rough shape on your stem or are you just using it to modify preformed stems?
Thanks. Yeah, I've never tried this setup to do a stem from scratch. I think the big problem would be that you'd have no way to drill the draft hole with the live center in position.
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android
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Post by android »

certainly... i guess i was just thinking about afterthought shaping, etc... which would make it the same as a preformed stem i suppose... :)
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sethile
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Post by sethile »

RadDavis wrote:Hi Scott,

They look the same, but the Jet is a far superior lathe to the HF or Grizzly or Enco.

They are buult in the same factory, and you can't tell the difference by looking at them, but I've owned both the Enco and Jet, and there's a huge difference in quality. Jets are built to much higher specs.

An Enco backing plate won't fit on a Jet spindle either.
Interesting! Thanks, Rad, I stand corrected. Come to think of it, I remember now when I was sorting through my own backplate mess that the Jet spindle is different than these others. Perhaps just the castings are the same?

I had to buy a blank backing plate from Little Machine Shop which I then refaced on my HF and drilled to mount my customized rebuilt Grizzly chuck (quite a project!). Making or at least resurfacing the backing plate on the actual lathe it's used on really helps it run true.

I've bought lots of tools, both good and bad, cheap and expensive. I can't think of a time I've regretted buying an expensive well made tool, but I sure have regretted buying cheap poorly made ones! I buy the best tools I can afford, but if I'd waited till I could afford the lathe I wanted, I'd still not have one.

Thankfully I got into my HF 9x20 for very little (about 1/2 the cost of a new one (even when they are on sale). I got it from a return merchandise liquidator listing them on eBay that happened to be within driving distance. I tore it apart and re-assembled it. It may still be far short of the Jet, and is certainly far short of a domestic lathe, but It's done the job when I could not have afforded anything better. I'll be happy to replace it when I can get into a better one, but it will have served me well... My Speedway 7x14 was a very generous gift. I rebuilt that one as well. It had some "issues", but worked well once I'd cleaned it up and learned the idiosyncrasies. I like having the dedicated lathes, one optimized for stummels and the other for stems.

I'm still hoping to bump into a nice old Logan or South Bend or some such gem. Somewhere in my family is an old lathe that belonged to my Great Uncle, who was a machinist for Ford. I'm hoping to track that down at some point. Would make a really fun project to restore that!
Scott E. Thile
Collector, smoker, and aspiring pipemaker.
http://sethilepipes.com
Sysop: http://pipedia.org
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Alan L
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Post by Alan L »

I'm the only guy I know with one of those Lathemaster lathes. Mine's the 8x14, 'cause they didn't make the 9x20 at the time I got it. I'd have to rate it as a step above HF and its clones, but a big step below Jet. It's nice that the leadscrew and dials are true SAE pitch and size, and the spindle bore is 25mm which allows for chucking long stuff easily (did a 13" churchwarden stem on it once with all but the tenon stuffed through the spindle). It did come with a steadyrest and a follower rest, which helped on the churchwarden.

My complaints about it are deal-killers for most pipework, though. The biggie is that the tailstock center is a few hundredths lower than the headstock center. This means you can't drill on it. Period. So, I drill on the drill press and turn between centers or in the chuck. The spindle bearings are inaccessible and have too much play in 'em. A dial indicator shows about a .005 - .008 wobble. Just enough to see, and just enough to leave some eccentricity on stem material as you turn it down. The scales on the cross slide tend to move under load, but if I keep a finger on the crank I can still turn off a .005-ish shaving on a tenon. The aforementiond headstock wobble actually helps by making more surface area for a friction fit in the mortise. Or so I tell myself to keep from crying... :roll:

The plus side is the ways are nicely hand-scraped. Hey, that's worth something! :? Oh, and the fact that you have to open up the headstock to get to the back gears or to change the drive belts for speed change makes you tend to be content with whatever feed and speed it's already set up for. :wink:

I use it because I have it and can't in good conscience sell it to anyone. Wish I had room for my Great Uncle's 1919 South Bend. 14" x 12 foot bed... :shock:
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Frank
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Post by Frank »

Alan L wrote:I'd have to rate it as a step above HF and its clones, but a big step below Jet.

The biggie is that the tailstock center is a few hundredths lower than the headstock center. This means you can't drill on it. Period. So, I drill on the drill press and turn between centers or in the chuck. The spindle bearings are inaccessible and have too much play in 'em. A dial indicator shows about a .005 - .008 wobble.

Oh, and the fact that you have to open up the headstock to get to the back gears or to change the drive belts for speed change makes you tend to be content with whatever feed and speed it's already set up for. :wink:
Just like most folks on this forum, I'd love to have a European or American made lathe, but I have to make do with what I have, a Chinese import.

My Smithy combo is probably what you'd call a HF clone, yet it seems to be a bit better than the Lathemaster, tolerance-wise. After more than a dozen years of use, the head and tailstock are still dead on, centre to centre, never been adjusted. Runout on the side of the faceplate is around .001", runout on the front face is less than .001". If I recall correctly, runout inside the spindle bore is also around .001" or less, and the bearings still feel rock solid. Belt change takes less than 1 minute. There's a small bit of play in the cross slide screw, but presently I don't feel like "pulling a Jack" to attend to it, so I'll live with the chatter awhile longer.
Regards,
Frank.
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JHowell
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Post by JHowell »

Alan L wrote: My complaints about it are deal-killers for most pipework, though. The biggie is that the tailstock center is a few hundredths lower than the headstock center. This means you can't drill on it. Period. So, I drill on the drill press and turn between centers or in the chuck. The spindle bearings are inaccessible and have too much play in 'em. A dial indicator shows about a .005 - .008 wobble.
The tailstock can be shimmed up. The tailstock base wears on all lathes, most of them need this eventually. You may have do it by trial and error; the precise way is to mount a dial indicator radially in the spindle and sweep the circumference of the barrel at a couple of points, but if your HS bearings are junk that won't tell you anything. Regarding the bearings, I don't know the machine at all, but if they were gotten in, they can be gotten out. Do you have a manual? There may be a preload adjustment you don't know about.
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Post by Alan L »

I know the tailstock can be shimmed, I've just been putting it off 'cause I'm lazy. :lol: As for the spindle bearings, they are supposedly sealed tapered roller bearings pressed into both sides of the cast-iron headstock. You can take a cover plate off and see the spindle, but the bearings were pressed in from the outsides. There are no preload adjustments or lube holes on them. One of these days I may try removing the chuck backing plate and cleaning off the threads for the spindle nose to see it that helps.

The rest of the machine has a bunch of oil ports, which is one reason I chose it.

Upon re-reading my little rant from yesterday I come off sounding a bit harsh, but it's all still true. Add to the list of minor things that I had to replace the T-bolts for the compound slide after one use. Dunno what the Chinese used for screw stock there, but I suspect it was pure zinc. They stripped out upon the first tightening, using a hand nutdriver (screwdriver-type thingy with a 9mm socket) and three fingers!

The other complaint, and then I'll shut up, is with the tailstock again. You have to use a wrench and several turns to loosen the bolt that holds it to the ways enough to move it, a lever-lock quick-release will not work.

Sorry for the rant, just offering my experience with the thing. :roll:
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Post by JHowell »

Alan L wrote:I know the tailstock can be shimmed, I've just been putting it off 'cause I'm lazy. :lol: As for the spindle bearings, they are supposedly sealed tapered roller bearings pressed into both sides of the cast-iron headstock. You can take a cover plate off and see the spindle, but the bearings were pressed in from the outsides. There are no preload adjustments or lube holes on them. One of these days I may try removing the chuck backing plate and cleaning off the threads for the spindle nose to see it that helps.
You mean the press fit is the only thing holding the bearings and the spindle in? That's so retarded I don't know where to start.
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Post by Alan L »

Well, not really, but almost. The bores are countersunk, and the spindle nose and the cone pulleys on the other end of the shaft are what hold it all in. The manual has this helpful advice about the assembly, presented below exactly as spelled, spaced, and punctuated in the manual:

"Head stock is important part of the lathe,it will deal with the precision or roughness of the work parts, and it' s made with high precision. So the high precision 2007107D grade of single row taper bearings are used for the supports of the main shaft, it can bear the load coming from the radial and axial direction, ensure the main shaft to remain the good precision of regidity and revolutio. the clearence of the bearings for the spindle has been well adjusted before delivery, the customers don' t have to cdjust again. When the lathe is used long and the precision becomes low,also cutting with vibration,then it needs adjusting."

Just how the customer is to accomplish the adjusting is left to the imagination. Yeah, looking at the exploded drawing with mislabelled numbers on the parts, the design does approach retarded. I'd scan the drawings and post 'em for a laugh, but it's too depressing and I don't have a scanner... :roll:

This same manual states that "The manrfacturing accuracy of the tail stock has reached the alowable error range" whatever the hell that means.

My favorite part of the manual is the safety checklist on the first page, entitled "Special Attention," particularly numbers
4 and 5:

"4. Forbidden to wear gloves, high-heel shoes, and skirts."

Guess that means turning in drag is right out, eh? :lol:

"5. Be subject to alteration without notice during the production procedure."

So, if I were to turn in drag, I am subject to castration without warning, apparently... :shock:
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Post by JHowell »

I'm trying to get a mental image of the lathe. The cone pulleys are outboard of the spindle bearings? So the machine has tapered roller bearings, that's fine, worst comes to worst they can be replaced. Sounds from the manual like adjustment is possible, and certainly precision has become low. There must be a nut under the cone pulley, something to snug those bearings up.

It's no surprise if it's junk, but you might as well give it a chance. With some work it might be better than you think.
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Post by Frank »

Alan L wrote:"4. Forbidden to wear gloves, high-heel shoes, and skirts."

Guess that means turning in drag is right out, eh? :lol:

"5. Be subject to alteration without notice during the production procedure."

So, if I were to turn in drag, I am subject to castration without warning, apparently... :shock:
WOW! :shock: Those commies are really tough on pooftahs. :twisted:
Regards,
Frank.
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Alan L
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Post by Alan L »

JHowell wrote:I'm trying to get a mental image of the lathe. The cone pulleys are outboard of the spindle bearings? So the machine has tapered roller bearings, that's fine, worst comes to worst they can be replaced. Sounds from the manual like adjustment is possible, and certainly precision has become low. There must be a nut under the cone pulley, something to snug those bearings up.

It's no surprise if it's junk, but you might as well give it a chance. With some work it might be better than you think.
There's no play in the bearings, they just aren't parallel with the ways as far as I can tell. It's certainly not an unusable machine, and I have done some nice work on it. I'm just not at all a machinist, and don't have the skills needed to bring it into trim. :cry:

I really do appreciate your input and observations!

And Frank, yeah, that's what I thought too. :lol:
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JHowell
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Post by JHowell »

Alan L wrote:
JHowell wrote: There's no play in the bearings, they just aren't parallel with the ways as far as I can tell. It's certainly not an unusable machine, and I have done some nice work on it. I'm just not at all a machinist, and don't have the skills needed to bring it into trim. :cry:
You don't have to be a machinist -- I'm certainly not.

A lathe with the spindle not parallel to the ways does bear some investigation. I presume you have a dial indicator and a magnetic base since you've said it's out .006-.008". Before anything else, you should measure runout at the spindle shoulder with the indicator clamped to the HS, that will tell you if you can trust the spindle as a reference point. Assuming it's only off a thousandth or so, you need to check the chuck. Sometimes the jaws are worn or sprung and won't hold stuff straight. With the indicator on the HS, clamp a reamer or piece of drill rod in the chuck and measure for runout. If the spindle is good but the chuck is bad there's no real point in using it to measure parallelism. If the chuck is OK, run an indicator down the test bar top and side to see where, exactly, the spindle is pointing.

You could pull the headstock without measuring, but it's a good idea to have some idea where you've been. At any rate, I'd pull the headstock. There may be some crud between the HS and the ways, there may be a little nub from casting you can file off, the lathe may have been knocked about in shipping, and, finally, there may even be some adjustment. Those with import lathes will know more about this than I do, but I seem to recall reading about someone fixing a HS alignment problem. If there's no adjustment, it can be scraped back into alignment, but that does take some expertise. Good thing your tail stock is already low. : )
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Post by Alan L »

Thanks for the tips, again. Last night I did some serious playing with the dial indicator, which showed me the actual culprit for the HS problems: The chuck. The mounting plate has a runout with reference to the headstock of about .0005", which I think is about as good as one can get with an import lathe in this price range. The chuck, however, shows a runout along the circumference of .002-.005 depending on where the indicator is clamped. .005 relative to the headstock, .002 relative to the saddle.

My next step for this weekend is to pull the chuck and check the alignment of the mounting plate relative to the ways, and see if maybe it just needs to be faced off on the machine to true it in. If the mounting plate is good and if I'm feeling REALLY masochistic I can lap the back of the chuck on my surface plate. If I thought the 4-jaw was true I'd face the back of the 3-jaw using it and the lathe, but I'm afraid I'd just make things worse that way.

None of this will fix the tailstock, but it can't hurt anything.

Unless it does... :roll: :arrow: :yield: :wink:
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Post by JHowell »

Alan L wrote:Thanks for the tips, again. Last night I did some serious playing with the dial indicator, which showed me the actual culprit for the HS problems: The chuck. The mounting plate has a runout with reference to the headstock of about .0005", which I think is about as good as one can get with an import lathe in this price range. The chuck, however, shows a runout along the circumference of .002-.005 depending on where the indicator is clamped. .005 relative to the headstock, .002 relative to the saddle.

My next step for this weekend is to pull the chuck and check the alignment of the mounting plate relative to the ways, and see if maybe it just needs to be faced off on the machine to true it in. If the mounting plate is good and if I'm feeling REALLY masochistic I can lap the back of the chuck on my surface plate. If I thought the 4-jaw was true I'd face the back of the 3-jaw using it and the lathe, but I'm afraid I'd just make things worse that way.

None of this will fix the tailstock, but it can't hurt anything.

Unless it does... :roll: :arrow: :yield: :wink:
It's important to figure out what measurements mean anything. Some chucks are mounted to the backing plate with a little slop to allow centering of stuff that is held in the jaws, which are held in the scroll, which can wear unevenly. You need to indicate on something held in the jaws. If the test bar shows runout in the same places as the exterior of the chuck, try loosening the bolts mounting the chuck to the backing plate (just a little, you still want friction) and gently tap the chuck around until the test bar indicates dead nuts. Then tighten the bolts.

The thing I think you said that still concerns me, though is spindle parallelism with the ways. With which spindle runout has no relation. You can hold the work with .005" runout and make great parts, so long as you do all the machining in one shot and don't change the setup once you chuck the work. If the spindle doesn't point in the right direction, that's a problem. So, once you get your runout chased down, you need to hold a test bar in the chuck and indicate from the headstock right next to the jaws. Then indicate, again from the headstock, out at the end of the bar. If the end wobbles around, your chuck isn't holding stuff straight, which could be the problem. In which case you need to tap it around and monkey with it until it is straight. Then indicate along its length from the saddle. There may be some variation due to wear of the ways, but headstock misalignment should look pretty distinctive -- a measurement in one plane gets off and keeps getting worse.

Anyway, you may be right that the backing plate is improperly machined and cutting it on the lathe is a good idea in general, but if the spindle isn't pointed right you don't want to do that, you'll just cut a very shallow cone.

Keep after it, you'll be making pipes on this sucker yet. Tailstock is easy peasy.
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Alan L
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Post by Alan L »

Thanks again, Jack. I'll do the bar-in-the-chuck test before I do anything else to it, AFTER futzing with the chuck bolts to try to minimize runout that way.

I'm not actually sure that there is a parallelism problem now, I must admit. :oops:

I'll try everything else before I resort to cutting anything off. In my other paying hobby of bladesmithing I have learned how difficult it is to put stock back on after it's cut off... :lol:
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