Belt or disc sander

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BobR
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Belt or disc sander

Post by BobR »

Do you use a disk sander or a belt sander for shaping? I use a small belt sander and it has worked well for me as it seems to give me more control and precision. I think it runs fairly slow and maybe that's why I like it. I notice most pros use disk sanders with either hard backings or padded/flexablr foam backings. So, I have to assume the disk sander setup must be superior or at least preferred by most. True? I'm very interested to understand the pros and cons of each including the type of backing on a disk sander. For long term skill development is one recommended over the other?


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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by LatakiaLover »

Not all sanders of the same type are equal. A hardware store 42" belt sander has as much in common with a 72" industrial duty one as a Toyota mini-pickup has with a Kenworth W-900.

Ditto a disc setup. Torque and rpm are potentially critical, and variable speed control is a VERY nice thing to have.

Given that, if both tools fall in the "reasonable for the task" range, when it comes to bowl shaping the disc wins easily, imo.
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PremalChheda
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by PremalChheda »

I use a disc sander. What is better? Whatever you are skilled on or can become skilled on better. I know one pipe maker that uses Cylindrical drums to shape, and another that solely uses a hand held rotary tool. For a long time, Baldo Baldi only used rasps and files to shape.
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wisemanpipes
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by wisemanpipes »

PremalChheda wrote:For a long time, Baldo Baldi only used rasps and files to shape.
now THAT would suck!

I use a disc to rough in, then belt sander for the shank.

also LL is right in that his burrking belt grinder and my 1x30 HF special share about as much in common as sasquatch and yeti :wink:

to each his own

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caskwith
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by caskwith »

All depends what you are comfortable and proficient using. I use a disc sander mostly but I have a large range of discs for specific tasks as well as general shaping. I also have 2 belt sanders that are pretty much exclusively for stem shaping. I have a foredom style rotary tool that is used occasionally , some rasps and files, sandpaper, knives...........
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WCannoy
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by WCannoy »

I use a belt sander, mostly because that's what I've always used. I can see a couple of advantages of using a disc, but also a couple of things I could do easily on a belt that would be more difficult on a disc. I have often thought of splashing out on a disc sander to supplement my belt sander... Maybe some day.
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LittleBill
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by LittleBill »

If I may tag on to this, does anyone here use a French wheel as their disk sander? What are the pros and cons to this method?

My current tool is a 1x30 Delta benchtop machine I bought back in the mid 80s. It works, but it is probably the oldest tool in my shop and is not a precision machine. I've also been using Saburr cutters in my Wecheer rotary tool.
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d.huber
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by d.huber »

wisemanpipes wrote:
PremalChheda wrote:For a long time, Baldo Baldi only used rasps and files to shape.
now THAT would suck!
It does and it doesn't. I did it this way for the first few pipes I made (like that'll prove anything) and while it did take me an inordinate amount of time, it allowed for an immense amount of control. Looking back at my first pipe reminds me that taking your time can achieve some really great stuff.

I'm not in any way saying that my first pipe was great. It wasn't. But there is one detail on the bowl that a lot of folks struggle with including myself: the curves and arcs on the lines of the body of the bowl are continuous and have zero bumps, lumps, or waves. Even now I look at it and think to myself, "Maybe I should just go back to rasps and files." :lol:
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andrew
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by andrew »

Do you mean an exposed disk on an arbor?

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andrew
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by andrew »

LittleBill wrote:If I may tag on to this, does anyone here use a French wheel as their disk sander? What are the pros and cons to this method?

My current tool is a 1x30 Delta benchtop machine I bought back in the mid 80s. It works, but it is probably the oldest tool in my shop and is not a precision machine. I've also been using Saburr cutters in my Wecheer rotary tool.
That's what I usually think of as a French wheel (exposed so you can use all sides/edges)

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LittleBill
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by LittleBill »

andrew wrote:
LittleBill wrote:If I may tag on to this, does anyone here use a French wheel as their disk sander? What are the pros and cons to this method?

My current tool is a 1x30 Delta benchtop machine I bought back in the mid 80s. It works, but it is probably the oldest tool in my shop and is not a precision machine. I've also been using Saburr cutters in my Wecheer rotary tool.
That's what I usually think of as a French wheel (exposed so you can use all sides/edges)

andrew
Yes, the ones I have seen are exposed all around. I was thinking more in terms of expense rather than exposure though. The ones I have seen ain't exactly cheap, but they use sheets of paper instead of PSA or velcro, so that would be a bit of a savings in the long run. I don't really want to fork out for another machine right now, but a French wheel could be mounted on my wood lathe. That would give me loads of power (3 HP 3 phase) and variable speed to boot.
caskwith
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by caskwith »

Any saving on paper would soon be outweighed by the outlay on a French wheel as opposed to a simple flat disc on an arbour. But really we are talking about 2 different tools here, a French wheel is not for heavy stock removal and shaping, it is a finishing tool for fine sanding and delicate shape adjusting. The bulk of material should really be removed with a coarse disc in my opinion. Of course we are again at a situation of do what suits you best, there is no one size fits all approach to pipemaking. I made a French wheel, I didn't like it at all, yet some people use almost exclusively the French wheel even with very coarse grits.
In terms of trying out a sanding disc, get yourself on ebay or the like, buy a cheap 5-6" Velcro disc and half a dozen pads to go with it, add some nuts and bolts as required and chuck it up in your wood lathe. You should be able to try it out for under $20, maybe even under $10. I'm still using that first disc but I have expanded my range to suit my needs and my way of working.
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by dogcatcher »

LittleBill wrote: Yes, the ones I have seen are exposed all around. I was thinking more in terms of expense rather than exposure though. The ones I have seen ain't exactly cheap, but they use sheets of paper instead of PSA or velcro, so that would be a bit of a savings in the long run. I don't really want to fork out for another machine right now, but a French wheel could be mounted on my wood lathe. That would give me loads of power (3 HP 3 phase) and variable speed to boot.
You have the Robust lathe, make a French wheel sander out of wood. Get the Beall tap for your spindle and make it to mount on your lathe spindle, mine fits on a little Rikon. I used a 2x2x 4 blank of maple. Then turned it round, next drilled from the tailstock end and tapped a 1/2-20 thread through the center of my mount. Next I took a 6" dis, center drilled it for the 1/2" bolt to mount on the spindle mount I made. Tightened it all on the mount and turned it round. Used foam for padding and sheets of sandpaper.
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by mcgregorpipes »

i use a 5" wheel with a velcro foam pad that can be removed. usually keep it off until after 120 then it helps for smoothing out contours.
for refining tight corners with the foam padding off I use abranet discs at 220 and 320 they wrap around the edges of the backing enough sand with the edge like a thin french wheel.
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oklahoma red
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by oklahoma red »

I agree with Chris that in most cases the so call French wheel is used for finish sanding. I associate the two piece designs (such as Tim West's) with the moniker. That is, there is a second plate behind the main plate that clamps the abrasive sheet that has been folded all around the circumference of the main disc. I am not overly fond of them just because of this. Getting all the folds to lay flat at the edge is nigh on impossible and as such there is a lot of bumping going on. Maybe it is just me but I cannot get a good flat surface. In practice it may not make a hill of beans difference but I prefer a smoother running disc.
I also concur with making your own. Dig deep into Trevor Talbert's web site and you will see a number of home-made wooden discs. The interesting ones are thick with a deeply recessed center that allows sanding the stem/shank joint without interference.
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KurtHuhn
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by KurtHuhn »

For years I used nothing but a belt grinder with a 4" contact wheel, but it has limitations. I started using a disc setup about 5 years ago (IIRC) and while it took a bit to get used to, that was me learning a new tool.

Now I use both with regularity.

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LittleBill
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by LittleBill »

Well it took me a while to get back to the thread here. Thanks for all the answers about French wheels and such. It sounds like it won't do much more than I can already do with the 3" disk I use for sanding bowls. And Chas, I also wondered about getting the paper to lie flat. Thanks for addressing that. I think for the time being I will continue on with my Saburr bits, belt sander, and 3" disks. Thanks for the ideas on building a larger disk though. One never knows when that might come in handy.
caskwith
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by caskwith »

Is your 3" disc one of those really thick foam ones that they use for sanding turned bowls and stuff? If so then they are really great, you can work a nice curved shape into the face over time and I use mine a lot.
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LittleBill
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by LittleBill »

caskwith wrote:Is your 3" disc one of those really thick foam ones that they use for sanding turned bowls and stuff? If so then they are really great, you can work a nice curved shape into the face over time and I use mine a lot.
I've got a couple of different ones, some hard and flat, and some spongy for doing curved surfaces. None of them really retain any shaping, although the spongy ones conform to the surface being sanded with varying degrees of pressure. The hard flat ones might do well for shaping I think, but the focus of my sanding turnings with them is (usually) to smooth the surface as opposed to shaping. I'll have to do some experimenting on briar and see how they do for shaping.
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Tyler
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Re: Belt or disc sander

Post by Tyler »

Here is my experience:

Belt sander: I have a 1x30 with 5" disk combo. I tried a time or two to shape the stummel on the belt. Horrible experience. I ruined several pipes very early in my pipe making. With perhaps a better belt and more practice I'm sure I could have gotten better with it, but it was not a good tool in my experience. What I did use this for was removing ebonite behind the button, and for squaring block with the disk side. It worked ok for both jobs. The danger with the belt is its tendency to cut with the edges.

5" neoprene padded disks: I used these for about 11 years. I owned about 6 of them. Most did not run true. I used the kind that had 1/4" of a neoprene type material for the pad on top of a hard plastic back. They work OK. I use the adhesive kind, and that's a pain. The biggest flaws with this setup up are frequent (inconvenient) paper changes and too thick an edge that doesn't allow you to cut tight radii (like the shank to stummel transition). Velcro backed would have been nice and solved the inconvenience of paper swaps, but the edge of those can cut, they're more expensive, and I could never find one that was narrow at the edge. They were all too fat.

3" pads: I used these for about two months. I got various backers with different firmness foams. I also got disks with scalloped edges to solved the problem of the edge cutting. Meh. I never got this system to a compelling spot. It might be do-able, but I'd only go this route if you already owned a bunch of the stuff.

I have tried various other things over the years as I stumbled on new disk options while on the tool aisle. Yellow plastic backers by Gator, for example, among other things. They lasted about five minutes and I chucked them.

Now to "the answer": a 7" fiber disk with a 7" angle grinder backer. I use 36 grit, but you can use less coarse. This setup up is cheap, widely available (Home Depot, Lowe's), does not require frequent paper changes, and is the best tool I've used for efficient and effective shaping. I have only been using this for about a year and a half. In case I am being unclear, it is vastly superior to all the other choices I've tried. A major advantage of this setup is it is < 1/8" thick at the edge and very rigid. Because it is rigid you can easily control the rate of wood removal by varying the pressure you use. A gentle touch results in gentle removal, not the need to press harder until the flexible edge quits running away from you.

As with most things, you can make a pipe with all of the above options. My comments are based on my experiences and are evaluating ease of use and efficiency.

In other news, finish sanding is a whole different beast. I recommend none of the above for that.
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