Rasp substitute that won't dull

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johnpowellpiv
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Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by johnpowellpiv »

Hey fellas. I bought some half round rasps from lee valley and used them and files from ottofrei to shape a briar block without power tools.
Problem is, it seems as I use my rasps on the block I just started carving tonight with the rasps, that the rasps I have are kinda dull- they aren't taking off nearly the amount of wood I'd like them too.
Do you fellas have any idea of a tool that is bi-directional abrasive wood remover? Ideally with two handles.
Something that I could apply to a clamped briar block that would allow me to remove substantial portions of wood in a motion like a saw (back and forth) that I could grab on to on both ends and really grind away the wood?
Does this description make sense?
Like a rasp works properly on the downward stroke (or else it gets dull, as I found out through experience) and you can't "saw" with it (upwards and downwards strokes).
What I'm asking is if anyone knows of a "bidirectional rasp" or something similar that would remove wood through abrasion without getting dull so quickly.
Thanks guys.
-John


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sandahlpipe
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by sandahlpipe »

I have dozens of different files as of the past couple of weeks. I can't imagine how a file would be sharp enough to cut in both directions. If you want a file or rasp that will cut in both directions, maybe try attaching sandpaper to a piece of metal with some adhesive.

Otherwise, learning how to properly use a file or rasp in a single direction is useful. You can also use many as a draw file, which I do often.

If you want a file to remove material quickly, check out the Iwasaki Files. They remove material as quickly as a rasp and leave behind a relatively smooth surface. They still won't cut both ways, but they push our a lot of briar, even in the medium and fine files.


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johnpowellpiv
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by johnpowellpiv »

Sweet. Thanks sandahlpipe. I appreciate the tip on the iwasaki files. I saw them mentioned on the "fast cutting file" thread recently.
Also. If I use my ottofrei files in both directions, is that going to make them useless? Like dull them? They seemed to be cut differently than a rasp, and while I understand why a rasp would dull if used in both directions, the files seem to be cut so that it wouldn't be a problem. In the pipe I just finished, I used the files mostly in place of the sandpaper once the clearing of briar was mostly complete using the rasps. Moving forward, if I were to use an iwasaki file in place of a rasp, do you think it would be safe on my ottofrei files to use them moving in both directions due to their cut? Or are most all files meant to be used in only the push stroke?
-John


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Sasquatch
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by Sasquatch »

Most rasps and files operate on the push because you can... well... push. Dragging is not usually the power stroke in wood working, with the exception of a few operations which are a) very specialized b) very Japanese and c) nothing to do with pipes.

Briar is hard shit and instead of buying 300 dollars worth of files, go get a Ryobi bandsaw from home depot.
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by LatakiaLover »

John --

Briar and stem stock is usually rough-shaped with power tools. A band saw followed by a rotating abrasive disk are the most common.

A decent band saw is quite expensive (and potentially dangerous), but a coping saw (or equivalent) is cheap, safe, and fairly fast. An abrasive disk is downright cheap. The only problem with them is they create a LOT of dust---which your lungs will hate you for later---and dust collection systems cost as much as a bandsaw. A good compromise is a Shop-Vac. They don't move enough air to work for several stations simultaneously, but will capture 90+ percent of visible dust.

If you get serious about making pipes, a true dust collection system is highly recommended. Besides capturing 99.9% of visible dust, they capture what you CAN'T see as well, which is what matters most when it comes to lung safety/damage down the road.
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

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sandahlpipe
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by sandahlpipe »

I like my files a lot for honing in the shape, but yeah, if you're taking off a lot of material, a coping saw is your friend. I got my bandsaw used off craigslist for $100 and it does well for everything I need it for. Sure, you can do it all with a rasp or hand file, but a saw will be much more effective.
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by d.huber »

I agree that if you're removing large amounts of material, as in cutting off chunks, buy a coping saw. They're cheap and easy to use. Otherwise, once you've removed those large amounts of material, go back to the rasp and file. I made my first pipe with those two tools and I think it was a good education.

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johnpowellpiv
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by johnpowellpiv »

Sweet. Thanks guys. I want to research the shop vac option a little more for when it comes to the abrasive disk usage, but I was already leaning towards a carcass saw, and a coping saw is pretty similar in concept and seems like a good option. Thank you each for the help.
-John


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johnpowellpiv
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Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by johnpowellpiv »

Ok guys, I guess what I'm asking is - is a coping saw that won't bend or break as I hold the saw in one hand and the briar block in the other hand (block probably resting on a table) viable? Can I expect such a thing? I thought that with the thicker blade of a dozuki Japanese pull saw (or with a carcass saw for that matter, though I'm thinking I'd go for a dozuki over carcass), I could avoid the trouble of a flimsy blade. The blade on a coping saw, while it may allow for precision cuts and angle changes mid-slice, seems flimsy and I worry that it would bend or break easily.
Has anyone experienced a coping saw working well for them? I like the idea of it, but I don't have a vice clamp to hold the briar block, so two handed usage of the coping saw seems like it would be difficult..
caskwith
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by caskwith »

A coping saw can be used in one hand, I regularly do so. Number one tip though, buy a vice, it will be eminently useful.
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sandahlpipe
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by sandahlpipe »

I strongly encourage a vice. You can use it for holding a dowel and insert the chamber into one end for sanding. Let the saw do the work and don't force it and you won't have blades break. I've done some pipe making with a coping saw with good results before I bought my band saw.


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meathod
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by meathod »

Disclaimer: All of my advice and experience is based on cutting and roughing out blocks of African blackwood, which is much harder on tools than briar, so my views expressed here may be a tad extreme.

I struggled with inadequate tooling for years. Without them, you need patience. It's just that simple.

All hand saws are going to feel slow when compared to a bandsaw... and all rasps/files are going to feel slow compared to motorized abrasives. These are just facts you need to get used to.

If you bought your rasps at Lee Valley, I know they are high quality. And unless they came from the factory defective, they are not dull. I have been using Lee Valley rasps for years, most of the time I use them improperly in both directions. You can use a rasp like this for a long time before it dulls, I'm on 3 years with my budget half round from Lee Valley.

What you are feeling, is the normal cutting rate of a rasp, sorry to disappoint you.

I view roughing out a pipe with a rasp as sort of a right of passage, I like to think that a lot of pipe makers have done this...maybe only once, for their first pipe. I've done it a couple times... but with all the power tools in my shop now.. if I ever had to go back to roughing out a block with a rasp I would pull all my beard hair out in frustration.

You need some sort of saw to rough the sucker out first.

I would buy a Stanley SharpTooth saw, find them at big box stores like HomeDepot. This is the saw that professional woodworkers recommend as a budget alternative. It's rough, cuts fast, the teeth are induction hardened and shaped like a Japanese tooth. For rough work this will equal much more expensive saws. Just keep in mind that this saw is for rough work only.

You NEED a vice with this saw. With the money you save on the saw, pick up a decent sized vice, preferably something vintage and heavy. You'll use it for the rest of your life, so it's not a bad investment.

If you can't swing that purchase now, wait till you can.

You might be tempted to go out and get one of Lee Valleys budget priced Japanese saws. I would suggest that you don't. Remember than Japanese teeth were designed for soft Japanese woods, and their thin kerf and tiny delicate teeth are designed for precision when cutting wood joinery. Roughing out briar blocks will be very hard on the teeth. I have read that people have success with these saws, but personally I have not. The pro grade saws and special toothed Japanese saws designed for hardwoods would undoubtedly be much better.. but better than the cheap Sharktooth? For the purpose of roughing out, probably not.

As for the coping saw, I think it's a great tool to have, but works best for small delicate work where you want a nice fine cut. Maybe if you're trimming bamboo, or a stem. For roughing out a block, if you have patience and skill, it is okay, but the SharpTooth saw and rasps will get you to the same final result faster. Also, expect coping saw blades to be disposable. They come in bulk packs for a reason, the blades break all the damn time, that is just the nature of the tool. To use this tool without the blade bending and wandering in the kerf, you'll need some practice.

This setup will get you by till you can afford a bandsaw. Buy vintage, heavy, at least 14". The Ryobi brand bandsaw mentioned earlier is a piece of crap. I literally gave mine to a pawn shop for free, it's garbage, a handsaw is better.

It is smarter and more efficient to make large leaps in your tool upgrade path, rather than waste money and time on making multiple tiny skips from one cheap alternative to the next. If you want to make pipes as a hobby, stick with the vice and handsaw, it works just fine.

When first starting out, it's important not to fall into the mental trap of wanting more efficient tooling, because you'll stagnate in your work as you obsess over the next best thing.
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andrew
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by andrew »

You don't need a 14" bandsaw for pipes. Nice to have, but if you're a hobbyist it's overkill. A small craftsman or ryobi will work fine for a very long time. Spend your big money elsewhere, like on a metal lathe (don't skimp on that :) )

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johnpowellpiv
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Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by johnpowellpiv »

Wow thanks guys.
I like the idea of a vice. Also, I think what was said about the lee valley files is correct - they weren't dull, and I have been using my 1/2 round 6" for shaping the briar block I have been working on today just fine. I was just frustrated with the rate of abrasion. Also, with the consistent repetitive motion, my finger that I point down the back of the rasp is sore (this is where a saw for rough cutting could be helpful).
I like the idea of cutting an entire block with abrasion only (similar to what a lathe allows for, only with the abrasive tool moving at a higher rate than the block). With hand tools like a rasp, the rasp is moving and so is the block, whereas in a vice, the block would be still and the abrasive tool would be doing most of the motion.
I'm thinking that it would be useful to have a foredom tool for abrasion because I could also use it to cut the tobacco chamber and the mortise. As of right now, I have been working from only pipe kits where the drilling is done for me.
I think a saw would be a good idea for cutting off chunks, but with abrasion, I like that I can shape the pipe slowly, and that I'm not left with fewer options by taking off major chunks in a single stroke. I think for the time being I'll stick with the rasps, and I may upgrade to the foredom & vice as my next major upgrade. Thanks for the help guys. I probably would have wasted a lot of money buying tools I don't need without checking in here first about y'all with y'all's prior experience.
Thank you.
-John


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sandahlpipe
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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by sandahlpipe »

A foredom is a great tool. If you're wanting a little more speed, you can buy a motor and Kurt Huhn's sanding disc setup and remove material quickly with only abrasion. It will be easier to achieve straight lines with a 6" disc than a foredom. After the sanding disc, you can use files and sandpaper to finish shaping in the areas the disc doesn't get.


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Re: Rasp substitute that won't dull

Post by KurtHuhn »

Files are interesting things - you can get a very fine finish with very little material removal, or lots of material removal with a crap finish. It all depends on the kind of file. To shape the wood (after roughing in on a shaping wheel) I like to use a double cut bastard file. The wood just melts away. After that, you can use a regular cut file prior to finish sanding, but I like to use a 150 grit disc instead.

Files are also intended to be use on the push stroke only - if you drag it backwards, it will actually damage the file or rasp and fold the teeth down. At that point you either have to buy a new one, or send it off to be sharpened.
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