Oil Curing

For discussion of the drilling and shaping of the stummel.
e Markle
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by e Markle »

BLC wrote:wow...ok...didn't mean to wake a sleeping bear.
How dare you! :)

This is a worthwhile topic, but as Bob hinted, I don't think there's much conversation between makers on this simply because it's a complex, unique process that takes a lot of experimentation to develop. I'd be interested in hearing the different methods, but I have to say, I'm extremely skeptical of the value. From what I understand, all of the benefits of this process are gone after about 10 smokes; it helps with break-in, and that's about all (no doubt some will disagree with that). So for me, it's a lot of tinkering for a minimum benefit.
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Sasquatch
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by Sasquatch »

The single best smoking pipe I've ever produced was oil cured. I have another that is a stellar pipe. Others I made came out ranging from decent to awful, in flavor, or oil-leaking, or whatever, and I didn't vary the method hardly at all. In fact I could make two pipes the same way, cure them the same way and have totally different final results, so I gave it up.

You have to make a decision about whether you want oils that stay liquidy and therefore extractable (and therefore might weep... forever) or oils that eventually will harden. Remember that Dunhill more or less invented sandblasting as a means of scraping a hard shell of dried oil residue off the pipe (I can prove this statement, go read this: http://www.folloder.com/pdf/1341418.pdf


To me, it's a process that can yield an exceptional pipe. But the fear of the occassional total dud put me off. It's like, my pipes are 98% total awesomeness, and a correct oil cure makes them 100%, but the fear of taking a 98% awesome pipe and turning into an unsmokeable piece of crap put me off.

Also after any hot process, the briar is a bland dark sandy color (ranging to mahogany) so finishing options are limited.

Also note in that Dunhill patent that probably no smooth Dunhill pipe was ever oil cured, it was ONLY the shell pipes.
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WCannoy
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by WCannoy »

e Markle wrote: So for me, it's a lot of tinkering for a minimum benefit.
Ok, I'm going to chime in here...

I oil cure my pipes.

It says so right on the front page of my site, but other than that I don't publicize that fact too much. Many smokers swear by the added methodology, and just as many smokers just swear at it. It's a controversial subject as I suspect, just like bowl coatings, there are enough makers doing a horrible job at it that it turns smokers off of the idea altogether.

I swear by it... well, my method at least. And I keep getting repeat buyers, many of whom I suspect never even noticed the short blurb about oil curing on my site, and have no idea that I do this.

The late wife of one of the late owners of my local Edward's used to work in the Edward's pipe factory here in Florida. Edward's pipes are notorious for being oil cured, and she was involved in that process. It didn't seem like they were keeping the process a secret, it just seemed like nobody ever asked.

I asked, and prompted many hours of conversations over many days and months about her work at the Edward's factory and the oil curing process.

Regarding Ernie's comment, these conversations saved me a lot of tinkering to get benefit, and a good amount of benefit at that. I suspect most folks who attempt oil curing never really see much benefit, and many of those I have spoke with have been doing an unnecessary amount of tinkering.

Now, I'm not going to go in to specific details about the oil recipe, temperatures, time and other factors, but traditional accounts of oil curing tinkering include mention of painfully long amounts of wait time, and lots of unnecessary filler steps.

For those die hard tinkerers who are not going to take no for an answer, I would like to help out a little by helping to steer the direction of your research in the right direction. Maybe I can save you a little time and trouble.

If you are already messing around with oil curing, here's an excerpt of information I shared not long ago as a result of an email inquiry on the subject:
My Email wrote:
The basic idea of oil curing, of course, is to leach the oil as deep as possible into the wood, allow it to mix with any remaining tannins and resins, then leach the mixture back out.

I'll assume the following about your process: That you have shaped and rough sanded the stummel as close as possible to your final shape before the curing process. That you are using new/clean oil for each pipe or batch of pipes. That you are also using heat when you steep the stummels.

Two weeks plus one month is a long time for a piece of briar to sit in the shop without being able to do anything with it. Here's a neat experiment you could try: Grab a few pieces of scrap briar, get them rough sanded just as you would a stummel before curing. Prepare a batch of oil, but add some blue or green (some obvious color) food coloring to the batch. Now start steeping those scraps in the oil! Pull one scrap out after 24 hours, wipe it dry, cut it open to reveal a cross section, and take your calipers and measure how far the dyed oil has penetrated into the briar. Pull the next scrap out after about three days and do the same. Give the next one maybe six days, about a week and a half for the next, and two weeks for the last. You will find a point where the oil has gone as far as it is going to go and done all the good that it's going to do. You might want to adjust the amount of time that the briar spend steeping.

As for pulling the oil back out of the briar... Well, that's just it. It might take a month for the oil to seep out on its own, but maybe you can reduce that time by "pulling" the oil out of the briar. The wood, naturally, wants to pull moisture inside. When you stick it in your oven, everything heats up and expands, and some of that oil gets pushed out and sits on top of the briar. As long as even a very thin layer of oil is sitting on top of the briar, the wood is in a battle between wanting to expel more oil via the heating process, and wanting to soak that extra oil back up via the natural capillary action of the wood. It creates a sort of oil traffic jam, until you wipe the excess off, then the oil will start to flow out again and you repeat the process. Well, I guess you could sit there and constantly wipe down the briar every minute of every hour of every day to keep it flowing... but that would just be silly. I think it would be better if the pipe were surrounded, or "wrapped" if you will, in something that will absorb the oil immediately as it reaches the surface of the briar, allowing the oil to flow constantly and in a sense "pulling" the oil from the wood and dramatically reducing the amount of time that this part of the process takes!
I do not in any way condone the use of this information as an excuse to start tinkering if you are not already! :wink:

All IMHO...
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PremalChheda
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by PremalChheda »

Oil curing was originally developed to treat briar that had excess tanins, resins, and saps. Most of the briar we buy today is very low in these because the sawmills are removing most of the stuff after cutting much better than they used to. Another reason the oil curing was done was to stabilize the material so it was stronger and would hold up to heat and stress. There are other, much easier and faster methods to achieve these goals. The taste can be subjective, but I would imagine oil curing would at least make it more consistent.
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

e Markle wrote:I'd be interested in hearing the different methods, but I have to say, I'm extremely skeptical of the value. From what I understand, all of the benefits of this process are gone after about 10 smokes; it helps with break-in, and that's about all (no doubt some will disagree with that). So for me, it's a lot of tinkering for a minimum benefit.
Absolutely the case as far as I have ever been able to determine.

Why pipe makers keep chasing it, though, is because humans love to Believe In Stuff, and oil curing gives smokers who are so inclined something semi-tangible upon which to hang their belief. That it is mysterious and secretive only enhances the allure.

In short, in the final analysis, it's a sales feature.
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Sasquatch
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by Sasquatch »

Yep - I have a WW2 vintage Kaywoodie and a pre-war Sasieni 8-dot, and those pipes are easily better than any oil-cured pipe I've smoked.

Most of the briar we are getting these days is really clean and good tasting. I like the idea of oil curing, but since it rendered my product LESS uniform overall, I shitcanned it.
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PremalChheda
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by PremalChheda »

LatakiaLover wrote:
e Markle wrote:I'd be interested in hearing the different methods, but I have to say, I'm extremely skeptical of the value. From what I understand, all of the benefits of this process are gone after about 10 smokes; it helps with break-in, and that's about all (no doubt some will disagree with that). So for me, it's a lot of tinkering for a minimum benefit.
Absolutely the case as far as I have ever been able to determine.

Why pipe makers keep chasing it, though, is because humans love to Believe In Stuff, and oil curing gives smokers who are so inclined something semi-tangible upon which to hang their belief. That it is mysterious and secretive only enhances the allure.

In short, in the final analysis, it's a sales feature.
In the case of one pipe maker that I converse with - Joe Nelson - The oil curing is not just a sales feature. Joe is one of the few that has an extensive, secret oil curing method that shows results from the very first bowl and onwards. I believe he developed the method partly from collaborations with Lee von Erck and research. He does not sell his pipes based on them being oil cured, but it has become part of his process that ensures he produces a very consistent product. The oil itself is not what makes Joe's pipes unique and have certain characteristics, but the entire process that the stummel goes through. I have not tried one out for myself yet, but I will have to remedy that soon.
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

PremalChheda wrote: He does not sell his pipes based on them being oil cured, but it has become part of his process that ensures he produces a very consistent product.
That's one of those subtly misleading statements that there's probably a Latin term for. (Help me out here, Sas.) :lol:

It implies that consistency cannot be achieved otherwise, which is not the case.

(This subject has "bowl coating" written all over it, doesn't it?)
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WCannoy
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by WCannoy »

Well shit.

I guess Lee Erck, Randy Wiley, Joe Nelson, and myself are just a bunch of pipemaking idiots for putting in extra time on all this "oil curing" smoke and mirrors. After all, wtf do we know?

BTW LatakiaLover, please refresh my memory... who are you?
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

WCannoy wrote:Well shit.

I guess Lee Erck, Randy Wiley, Joe Nelson, and myself are just a bunch of pipemaking idiots for putting in extra time on all this "oil curing" smoke and mirrors. After all, wtf do we know?
Oh, what fun. Interpretation of disagreement as a personal attack. Even supplying imaginary words! How does my agreeing with another poster who said he didn't find oil curing's taste effects lasted very long translate into "I think you're an idiot" Walt? Please be specific.

BTW LatakiaLover, please refresh my memory... who are you?
Followed by more fun. The faux innocent question intended as oblique disparagement.


Issues. I detect issues.
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WCannoy
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by WCannoy »

LatakiaLover wrote: How does, [oil curing's taste effects not lasting long] being "the case as far as I have ever been able to determine" translate into "I think you're an idiot" Walt? Please be specific.


Oh, it wasn't that one small phrase, it was the rest of the statement:

"Why pipe makers keep chasing it, though, is because humans love to Believe In Stuff, and oil curing gives smokers who are so inclined something semi-tangible upon which to hang their belief. That it is mysterious and secretive only enhances the allure.

In short, in the final analysis, it's a sales feature."
BTW LatakiaLover, please refresh my memory... who are you?
Followed by more fun. The faux innocent question intended as oblique disparagement.


Issues. I detect issues.
This forum is followed by those who wish to learn. I think folks deserve to know who they are learning from. Since you readily asserted your "final analysis" on this subject, you appear to be presenting yourself as an authority in the field. Ok, well... are you?

I do not know if you have introduced yourself to the forum before, and if you have, I have forgotten. The question was not rhetorical.

Who are you?
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

So, my agreeing with someone about the temporary nature of oil curing's flavor effects PLUS speculating on why it has been tinkered with for a century in spite of that, constitutes calling you, Lee, Joe Nelson, and randy Wiley idiots. Got it. :roll:


As for "presenting myself as an authority," again, those are your words, not mine. How would I "present" myself? I fix pipes. Refinish them, make stems, that sort of thing.
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PremalChheda
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by PremalChheda »

LatakiaLover wrote:
PremalChheda wrote: He does not sell his pipes based on them being oil cured, but it has become part of his process that ensures he produces a very consistent product.
That's one of those subtly misleading statements that there's probably a Latin term for. (Help me out here, Sas.) :lol:

It implies that consistency cannot be achieved otherwise, which is not the case.

(This subject has "bowl coating" written all over it, doesn't it?)
It can be misleading depending on how the reader interprets it and if the reader does not take into account that there are other processes that can ensure consistency and my earlier post.
Oil curing was originally developed to treat briar that had excess tanins, resins, and saps. Most of the briar we buy today is very low in these because the sawmills are removing most of the stuff after cutting much better than they used to. Another reason the oil curing was done was to stabilize the material so it was stronger and would hold up to heat and stress. There are other, much easier and faster methods to achieve these goals. The taste can be subjective, but I would imagine oil curing would at least make it more consistent.
Joe's process includes oil curing. GBD's process was kiln drying. Barling's process was aging. My process is super duper uber secret. The point I was trying to express is that Joe reduces the chance that an odd piece of briar that has a little more stuff inside will make the smoke taste off because the oil curing brings it more in line for his process. In this way he ensures that the pipe he makes is very consistent in terms of the material. It can also strengthen the briar a little more from the oil and the process that will ensure a better chance for it to hold up to heat and varying humidity. Are Joe's pipes more consistent in terms of the state of briar than my pipes? It is possible, but only by a little because I only use very good quality properly treated briar and the processes I use stabilize the briar sufficiently so the consistency I get is very very good and more than sufficient for me to put my name on it.
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

Premal ---

I think this is such a squirmy subject because it is logically impossible to prove a negative.

The only way to prove (sort of, anyway) that ANY post-mill process results in a better performing pipe would be a double blind study where dimensionally identical non-treated pipes were mixed with treated ones, and the smokers of both types were polled afterward. Then mix 'em up and repeat enough times that a statistically reliable result was achieved.

Hardly practical, of course, because the whole thing would have to start with a statistically valid sample size of pipes.

I think that the impossibility of conducting such an experiment is seen as a marketing opportunity by those makers who are feature-minded. After all, except for adornments all briar pipes are just a piece of wood and a stem, and differentiation is difficult to achieve in ways other than styling and workmanship.

Fun fact: Joel Sasieni used to simply take every block delivered to his factory and shove 'em in an oven to bake for many hours. If they survived without cracking, he declared them as fit as they'd ever be, and sent them down the line. The cracked ones became firewood. Interesting because family-era Sasienis were widely regarded at the time as the best and most reliable smokers on the market.
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by Sasquatch »

The implication of this "extra time, extra cost, extra effort" line is that somehow the pipe is better because of it.
Some people will say so. Some people will swear by it.

Some people prefer acrylic stems. Some people don't eat meat.

We all want to make good pipes, that's the goal here. You can make a great pipe without oil curing. Castello does it every day.

You can also make a great pipe with oil curing. Oil curing won't make a poorly designed pipe smoke good, and by and large, failing to oil cure a good piece of briar won't make the pipe smoke (or taste) bad.


That's it boys. That's the end of the fucking show.

What's worth the time or effort for one pipe maker may not be for another. And that's cool, isn't it? People who want oil cured pipes can buy 'em. Just ... not from me, really.
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Sasquatch
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by Sasquatch »

PS would this be a good time to argue that the stem is more important than the stummel for how a pipe smokes and tastes?
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by Sasquatch »

PPS I fucked around with straight heat-curing for awhile, dried some stummels RIGHT out. Light as a feather they were.

And about 3 months later, all the tenons were loose because the pipes had re-absorbed moisture from the air. One that went to the West Coast was unfixably loose, I'd never seen anything like it. Had to make a new stem.
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

Sasquatch wrote: You can make a great pipe without oil curing. Castello does it every day.
Interesting story. One of my customers is a wealthy collector who has over a million dollars worth of uber-grade pipes. The list of makes he collects is long.

I thought I'd take advantage of his experience one day to ask him which ones smoked the best. You know, for science. :lol:

His answer? "Many of the most expensive ones don't smoke well at all. I collect those pipes because they are beautiful to look at. They're art. What I actually smoke is a separate rack of about 30. All Castellos."
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by LatakiaLover »

Sasquatch wrote:PPS I fucked around with straight heat-curing for awhile, dried some stummels RIGHT out. Light as a feather they were.

And about 3 months later, all the tenons were loose because the pipes had re-absorbed moisture from the air. One that went to the West Coast was unfixably loose, I'd never seen anything like it. Had to make a new stem.
I'd guess based on that that Joel & Co. rested his cooked blocks long enough to become dimensionally stable from atmospheric re-hydration.
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Re: Oil Curing

Post by PremalChheda »

LatakiaLover wrote:Premal ---

I think this is such a squirmy subject because it is logically impossible to prove a negative.

The only way to prove (sort of, anyway) that ANY post-mill process results in a better performing pipe would be a double blind study where dimensionally identical non-treated pipes were mixed with treated ones, and the smokers of both types were polled afterward. Then mix 'em up and repeat enough times that a statistically reliable result was achieved.

Hardly practical, of course, because the whole thing would have to start with a statistically valid sample size of pipes.

I think that the impossibility of conducting such an experiment is seen as a marketing opportunity by those makers who are feature-minded. After all, except for adornments all briar pipes are just a piece of wood and a stem, and differentiation is difficult to achieve in ways other than styling and workmanship.

Fun fact: Joel Sasieni used to simply take every block delivered to his factory and shove 'em in an oven to bake for many hours. If they survived without cracking, he declared them as fit as they'd ever be, and sent them down the line. The cracked ones became firewood. Interesting because family-era Sasienis were widely regarded at the time as the best and most reliable smokers on the market.
I can only state an educated opinion based on my own experimentation with curing and what was shared with me by those that extensively tested different methods. Out of 10 stummels I tested years ago, 5 sets of 2 from 5 pieces of briar, 4/5 stummels that were cured (not oil cured but similar) tasted a little better/drier than the ones that were not cured for the first few bowlfuls. Now enter in differences in palate from the different days / food / drink / mood etc... and all my data is really unvalid, but it is unlikely it would have happened 4/5 times. After the first few bowlfuls on all of the pipes, they all tasted very close if not the same. The ones that were not cured tasted good right from the begining with a little more woody taste. I decided not to cure the briar to that extent on my pipes permanently because 1. it takes forever, 2. with the bowl coat in it negated the benefit of the curing and the woody taste of not curing, and 3. the briar warps a little with the curing process I used.

I agree there is no definitive answer for how curing briar will affect the taste of briar that is already of good quality, but there are other factors to consider for the end product because of the curing like eliminating faulty material and strengthening the material on a physical level with heat application in addition to pushing or drawing a liquid through the pours.

I like these fun pipe facts. I got one for you:

Fun Fact: Out of all of the pipes Michael Butera has smoked including his own, the best tasting ones were fresh Castellos from the early 1980's. And he tested alot of pipes and developed one of the first blended filler cigars in the Dominican Republic through his own tasting and testing.
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