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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:31 am 
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Billy Klubb wrote:

1) when you guys drill a block, do you drill the mortise & airway first or after the chamber? and the "why?"
2)for those that do hand cut, do you cut the bowl shape first or the shank?
3)staining: I have heard and read a little about using a darker stain at first to identify scratches and to make the grain more pronounced. is there any reason not to do like this? are there stains to stay away from?
4)buffing the finished pipe: what's the difference between Tripoli and White Diamond? do these stand up better on the finish than carnauba wax?


Hi Billy,
Several of these are subjective, but here is how I do it:
1) I always drill: mortise, airway, chamber. There are advantages to doing chamber first though. Just do what you're comfortable with.
2) I generally shape before drilling, but I can't really say I do shank or bowl first. I basically rough the shape out as I go. I guess technically I finish the shank first, but it's not as though I do the shank and only then turn my attention to the bowl.
3) This is just personal preference; I personally don't do this. If you want to do it, I'd suggest you consider using a lighter stain instead of darker. It won't matter very often, but in case you do have a pipe that can be stained with a lighter color you won't have to backtrack (i.e. sand it off) to do so. The lighter color is still pretty visible.
4) Tripoli is much more aggressive than white diamond. I use red tripoli but never the brown. I may not understand what you're asking about the wax, but if you're asking if they are a substitute for wax, the answer is no. You'll generally want to polish the pipe with white (or whatever you like), and then apply the wax. You would not leave compound exposed on the pipe.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:25 am 
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mightysmurf8201 wrote:
The main issue here, Billy, is that people come here on a quest to learn how to make pipes. The people here offer to "teach a man to fish" and the man gets pouty, essentially saying "screw all that, just give me the fish". In your particular case, we did both. I answered your questions, which you acknowledged that I and Sandahl both did, AND we pointed you in the direction to find more information yourself. What more do you want? Just to be clear, this is not a rhetorical question. I genuinely don't know what more you want. You got the answers you needed, not necessarily the ones you wanted. Happy Valentine's Day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not asking for a fish. nor am I getting pouty about it. it's not about the answers I wanted as I'm not sure what to expect. it's not like I'm asking, "I brewed this beer 2 days ago. What day will it be done?" and then getting mad when someone gives me the appropriate answer. it's about being scolded for asking very simple questions. forums like these tend to be filled with inside jokes and personal banter, making searching for simple things a mind numbing process. as for what I want, not to be talked down to or scolded for asking questions. that is all. y'all have helped and I thank you. but I won't be asking anything else since it's an inconvenience. as you guys have pointed out, there is a search function. I'd rather waste time sifting through personal jokes and such than spoken to as though I'm an ungrateful idiot. I've had enough of that in my life and would rather not be in the place that takes me to. again, thank you for the info. I found it helpful and will use the advice given.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:27 am 
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e Markle wrote:
Billy Klubb wrote:

1) when you guys drill a block, do you drill the mortise & airway first or after the chamber? and the "why?"
2)for those that do hand cut, do you cut the bowl shape first or the shank?
3)staining: I have heard and read a little about using a darker stain at first to identify scratches and to make the grain more pronounced. is there any reason not to do like this? are there stains to stay away from?
4)buffing the finished pipe: what's the difference between Tripoli and White Diamond? do these stand up better on the finish than carnauba wax?


Hi Billy,
Several of these are subjective, but here is how I do it:
1) I always drill: mortise, airway, chamber. There are advantages to doing chamber first though. Just do what you're comfortable with.
2) I generally shape before drilling, but I can't really say I do shank or bowl first. I basically rough the shape out as I go. I guess technically I finish the shank first, but it's not as though I do the shank and only then turn my attention to the bowl.
3) This is just personal preference; I personally don't do this. If you want to do it, I'd suggest you consider using a lighter stain instead of darker. It won't matter very often, but in case you do have a pipe that can be stained with a lighter color you won't have to backtrack (i.e. sand it off) to do so. The lighter color is still pretty visible.
4) Tripoli is much more aggressive than white diamond. I use red tripoli but never the brown. I may not understand what you're asking about the wax, but if you're asking if they are a substitute for wax, the answer is no. You'll generally want to polish the pipe with white (or whatever you like), and then apply the wax. You would not leave compound exposed on the pipe.

Good luck!

thank you for your insight!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:56 am 
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Ernie laid it out well.
1. For me..........mortise, airway, chamber.
2. When shaping freehand, I normally set the shapes profile first, then begin to shape the shank, but not too much. At this point one can begin to shape the bowl. From there, I normally go from bowl to shank, bowl to shank.......................... This is a process you will develop over time and will find your comfort level.
3. Many use a diluted stain during the finer grits to find scratches. Scratches have a nasty ability to hide, especially when you photograph a finished pipe!!!
4. Be careful with tripoli.
Billy, read and make pipes. Many of us that have been doing this for years learned by trial and error. Try to find a pipe maker that would let you visit his shop and watch the process.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:43 am 
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baweaverpipes wrote:
Scratches have a nasty ability to hide, especially when you photograph a finished pipe!!!


you mean especially UNTIL you photograph a finished pipe. Then they stop hiding...


Let me give some counterweight:

1) I pretty much always drill the chamber first
2) Since I'm a drill first - shape second pipemaker, I turn the bowl after drilling the chamber. Then switch to airway & mortise drilling & shank shaping
3) You are mixing up 2 things. You can add a stain while sanding to highlight scratches, that's a good idea. But it's not the same as adding a dark baselayer of stain and sanding it back to create a contrast and highlight the grain.
I don't use stain while sanding (yet, I'm planning to in the future) but I almost always use a dark underlayer of stain.
4) tripoli = agressive prepolish
white diamond = fine polish
carnauba = finishing material

tripoli & white diamond are not something you put on your pipe, they are something you put on a polishing wheel to polish your pipe. There's not supposed to be any left on the pipe when you're done.
Carnauba on the other hand is supposed to form a layer on the pipe to create a nice glossy finish.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:20 pm 
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Gee Norm, thanks for remembering me!!! LOL!!! :takethat:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:04 pm 
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pipedreamer wrote:
Gee Norm, thanks for remembering me!!! LOL!!! :takethat:

That is why I said among :wink: . If You want to kiss George it's none of My business :whisper: , Norm.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:24 pm 
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Billy Klubb wrote:
it's about being scolded for asking very simple questions.


Characterizations like that are what publicists and politicians call "spin."

It is not what happened.

I was the first person to respond to your post, and did so with a direct link to the search function. Both because it is the correct "big picture" answer---it showed you how to fish---and because it sent a gentle message that doing so was the right way to deal with lists of questions that were of the "Very Beginner" sort. (your description, not mine)

Then Sandahl responded, answering them at face value, while prefacing his response with "These questions have all been asked and answered repeatedly on this forum."

At that point---two responses in---you had exactly what you came for: Direct answers as well as a pointer toward the best way to go about handling "very beginner" questions in the future.

Then Manny (MightySmurf) further elaborated on Sandahl's answers, plus explained how single, "targeted" questions work best on forums like this, not submitting lists of them.

Still no pushback. And you had what you came for, three times over.

ONLY THEN did the tone of the thread change, when YOU started in about other forums being "more helpful", "not talking down" and "[responding to your needs] without hesitation", and repeatedly made childish "This is the last time I'll ever ask YOU guys anything!" declarations.

And now, you admit something I suspected from the start and was the reason I pushed back (when I finally did) regarding your unhappiness with the forum: Your waiters didn't bring your food fast enough, didn't set down the plates correctly, and you thought the sauce on the duck l'orange was a bit too sweet.

In short, you wanted other people to do your work for you:

Quote:
...forums like these tend to be filled with inside jokes and personal banter, making searching for simple things a mind numbing process.


Oh dear. Mind numbing. How awful.

Quote:
...as for what I want, it's not to be talked down to or scolded for asking questions.


Again the spin. :lol: That's not what happened.

As for getting pushback around here, that is entirely up to you.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:55 pm 
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you gave me an e-spanking. good on you. as I said, es ist vorbei.

as for everyone else, thank you for your time and effort. it truly is appreciated. cheers and happy pipe making!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:08 pm 
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Billy I'm basically a beginner too. Massis and Ernie have already answered your questions better than I can. This might help fill in a couple other blanks. I started a few years ago then stopped for the last couple years and am now starting over. I prefer to square up my blocks first. It makes it easier for me to keep things in alignment. I would drill the mortise and airway first. You also want to face your shank at this point. This way you can adjust the depth of your chamber to match where your airway is without changing setups. Do all the steps you can at each setup before changing. Every time you change your setup you have the possibility of introducing errors. When you drill your chamber when you get close to where your airway should be go slowly and check often. You can always drill a little deeper but you can't put it back if you go too far.
I pick what shape I want, drill, then shape. For now pick shapes where you can keep the mortise and airway on the same axis. After you're comfortable with that you can try other shapes where the mortise and airway intersect at an angle.
I hope this helps,
Rodney


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:20 pm 
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Dude, I honestly cannot believe your reaction to someone telling you to use the search function... Why is everyone in the world getting offended so easily nowadays?
You asked questions that not only have been answered many times before, but prove (I refer to the tripoli/white diamond/wax question) that you have no idea at all about pipemaking yet. What should one do to get an idea? Search and read!
Can you explain why you think anyone should do anything else than direct you to the search function if you ask such a basic question?

I have had a couple of guys who wish to become pipemakers here in Poland ask me about stuff and I've always tried to be as helpful as possible, including long explanative emails that take a long time to type that nobody pays me for, even though pipemaking is my job. But one of the first things I tell any aspiring pipemaker that asks me for advice is "Read pipemakersforum. All of it." If you have any questions after that, they will most probably be very good questions. Before that you're just a drunk child lost in the fog as we say here.

Get over it and make some pipes, we are all here to help. And we all enjoy the occasional controversy- as soon as you start working with ebonite please let us know what you think of the smell.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:46 pm 
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W.Pastuch wrote:
...as soon as you start working with ebonite please let us know what you think of the smell.


It looks like this day was worth waking up for after all. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:51 am 
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W.Pastuch wrote:
But one of the first things I tell any aspiring pipemaker that asks me for advice is "Read pipemakersforum. All of it."


I did that before I even registered, let alone made a first post. Took me about 2 years!









and I still ask dumb questions.


PS: but I agree 100% with your post!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:36 am 
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I am having some sympathy for Billy. Using the search function can be quite challenging. I recently searched tobacco chamber coatings and spent well over an hour before I got enough info to have an idea how folks are doing things. I also searched shank extensions for hours and still only have a vague idea about how to proceed. Reading the whole forum is a tremendous task and the rewards are like finding nuggets of gold in a desert of sand. That's fine if it is your thing, but it would drive me nuts. I find the stickies to be more efficient, but they don't cover everything. Some of the referenced videos are great, and there are Pipedia articles well worth reading.
I generally do best taking someone at face value without projecting any value judgments. If I get took or trolled or whatever, so be it.
DocAitch

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:16 am 
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DocAitch wrote:
I am having some sympathy for Billy. Using the search function can be quite challenging. I recently searched tobacco chamber coatings and spent well over an hour before I got enough info to have an idea how folks are doing things. I also searched shank extensions for hours and still only have a vague idea about how to proceed. Reading the whole forum is a tremendous task and the rewards are like finding nuggets of gold in a desert of sand. That's fine if it is your thing, but it would drive me nuts. I find the stickies to be more efficient, but they don't cover everything. Some of the referenced videos are great, and there are Pipedia articles well worth reading.
I generally do best taking someone at face value without projecting any value judgments. If I get took or trolled or whatever, so be it.
DocAitch


I am not sure if those that are getting their butts hurt by being pointed in the right direction by using pmf as reference really understand the value of the search function. Back in the day, there was no PMF and this wealth of information. We had to do it the old fashioned way by reading anything we could get our hands on at the library, experiment for hundreds of hours, then test our experiments for hundreds of hours. I would much prefer searching for an hour or 10 to find this information. This forum is a gold mine for a pipe maker, and the nuggets are spewing out of the tunnels.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:44 am 
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Billy Klubb wrote:
some other boards I have been on had great FAQs as well. things change and evolve as well as the way people view certain processes. one of these boards, first response to any beginner was a link to the search function. that's all fine and dandy, but there were usually follow up questions regarding specific processes. some of which were not outlined or have become a topic of debate. that forum is all but dead now. another forum gets plenty of traffic with a lot of the same questions asked. people seem to be a bit more helpful and answer the same questions without hesitation and offer advice without talking down. I'll lurk around and keep reading topics I feel might help, but I sure as hell won't ask anymore questions. posting links to FAQ and telling to ask the right questions at the right time (what are the right questions and what is the right time?) is far less than helpful and makes any response following seem less than friendly nor helpful. thank you for what little responses and time you have given. good luck with all your pipes!



The right response would have been something along the lines of, "Ah yes! The search function! Let me go check it out. My bad." Then actually take the advice and research at least a little then come back with any questions you might have after doing at least a little footwork. George is a grumpy old guy but he's often right and that's the case here. Acting butt hurt will get you exactly nowhere on this forum. Swallow your pride a bit and open your eyes and ears and you'll find the community to be more helpful than in any other trade or craft out there.

1) On straight or slightly bent pipes, I drill mortise, airway, then chamber. On really bent pipes, I drill the airway, chamber, then mortise. When drilling the airway before the mortise you have to have a solid drilling setup so the airway doesn't force the bit to wander when drilling the mortise. The advantage, though, is that you can more accurately drill the airway to tight tolerances and adjust the mortise depth to center the airway at the bottom of the mortise. Drilling the airway before the chamber allows you to adjust the chamber depth and angle so that the airway is perfectly centered and not too high or low in the chamber. Drilling the chamber before the airway is fine but there is a higher risk of the airway bit wandering and being off the mark with no way to readjust or fix it.

2) As others have mentioned, when shaping by hand, I do the bowl shape and shank simultaneous and shift from one to the other throughout the shaping process making adjustments and removing briar as I go.

3) I first apply stain after sanding with 320 grit and use whatever stain I intend as the base stain for the effect I'm after to get the end product. Stick with aniline dyes to start. Fiebing's leather dyes are the easiest to use. Mosier's powdered dyes can be used to make custom stains. I use Mosier's exclusively. Eventually you may want to experiment with water based powdered dyes and even oil based powdered dyes for different effects. Stay away from commercial off the shelf wood stains for the most part.

4) The difference between tripoli and white compound (and any other buffing compound) is the grit. Red tripoli is the more aggressive and most common compound pipemaker's start with. Each pipemaker develops their own process that they find to work best for them and their setup adjusting speeds, grits, pressure, progression, etc. The best starting point is red tripoli, then white compound, then carnauba. You can get buffing compounds in dry and greasy forms. Play with them to find what you like and don't like about each type. Some pipemakers will start with more aggressive compounds like green or brown for different applications like the initial buffing of stems to eliminate some of the hand sanding work. Some add finer grits after white compound like tan Menzerna compound. I use red tripoli, then grease based white compound, followed by dry white compound, followed by tan Menzerna, followed by carnauba. YMMV.

In the words of the immortal and beloved Rad Davis -- I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:52 pm 
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"I am not sure if those that are getting their butts hurt by being pointed in the right direction by using pmf as reference really understand the value of the search function. Back in the day, there was no PMF and this wealth of information. We had to do it the old fashioned way by reading anything we could get our hands on at the library, experiment for hundreds of hours, then test our experiments for hundreds of hours. I would much prefer searching for an hour or 10 to find this information. This forum is a gold mine for a pipe maker, and the nuggets are spewing out of the tunnels."

I certainly appreciate the wealth of information on this site and I also appreciate the hours of experimentation that have gone into your acquisition of these hard won skills and techniques. I am deeply grateful that you guys have chosen to share this information. I was merely expressing my frustration ( and I think Billy's) with the perceived inefficiency of gleaning it from the "chaff".
I suppose that part of that is engendered by the super stickies, videos, and articles that I've come across.
No offense or ingratitude intended.
DocAitch

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:11 am 
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DocAitch wrote:
"I am not sure if those that are getting their butts hurt by being pointed in the right direction by using pmf as reference really understand the value of the search function. Back in the day, there was no PMF and this wealth of information. We had to do it the old fashioned way by reading anything we could get our hands on at the library, experiment for hundreds of hours, then test our experiments for hundreds of hours. I would much prefer searching for an hour or 10 to find this information. This forum is a gold mine for a pipe maker, and the nuggets are spewing out of the tunnels."

I certainly appreciate the wealth of information on this site and I also appreciate the hours of experimentation that have gone into your acquisition of these hard won skills and techniques. I am deeply grateful that you guys have chosen to share this information. I was merely expressing my frustration ( and I think Billy's) with the perceived inefficiency of gleaning it from the "chaff".
I suppose that part of that is engendered by the super stickies, videos, and articles that I've come across.
No offense or ingratitude intended.
DocAitch


DocAitch, I am respectfully calling BS. It really only takes a few minutes to find the information that one is looking for. Name a topic. I bet I can find the information using the search function in just a few minutes. I think in Billy's case is that he really needed to read quite a bit to get a base knowledge first. He was not just asking for a question to be answered. He was asking for multiple answers all at once with very little preparation. Asking a question or a few questions is definitely not an issue, and almost everyone here is happy to answer.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:22 am 
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No need to call BS. I see your point.
I will make the counter that 1) I am not personally very adept at this particular form of communication and tend to be quite linear in my approach to things 2) I have spent my adult life making decisions based on very little information - Emergency Medicine is practiced based on what's in your tool box, not research (instant gratification/solutions) 3) I admit to being somewhat lazy 4) I am over 70years of age and don't want to waste time.5) I have also found that a civil response to even the most inane and silly questions is always the best path 6) I can't read other people's minds and there fore can not ferret out the reason why they do things. I can only assume that their reason is right and proper in their own heads. :thumbsup:
I am giving Billy the benefit of doubt. I suspect that he will do a bit of research before his next question, as will I.
DocAitch

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:36 am 
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DocAitch,

We all need a quick answer sometimes. I have asked some questions on non-pipe related forums and got helpful answers quickly, but I also searched for the answers first. I was better prepared to ask certain questions after I did a few minutes of reading.

As to the wealth of information on here: I cannot fathom how anyone that is interested in making a decent pipe would not want to read all of it. I still go back and browse, and will pick up a few ideas here and there.

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