Copying the masters?

[the rev]

When you are just learning, as I will be for the next few years, would it be considered bad form to copy the masters works? I obviously will not make them as nice, I will not be advertising them as my own designs, and I am basically challenging my pipe making skills to duplicate what I see. Learning different aesthetics towards developing my own.

what say ye pipe makers?

rev

[Ocelot55]

ALL I do is copy. I'm not bright enough to come up with unique shapes. Besides, my goal is just to make very well crafted classics and the occasional freehand. I used to emulate Dunhills, but frankly now that I have 5 Dunnies I can say sometimes their shaping sux.

Even if you emulate, I think there is something unique to you that is transferred to the design. These are usually very subtle things, like bit work, but any pipe you make, even copies, will have some aesthetic elements unique to you. Or at least that's MHO.

[d.huber]

ALLI'm not bright enough to come up with unique shapes.

I disagree. I think you are very bright.

I'd say that crazy wild shapes just aren't your voice.

[wdteipen]

ALL I do is copy. I'm not bright enough to come up with unique shapes.

I disagree too. 'Copy' is probably too nice of a way to put it.


Seriously though, not only is it okay to copy the masters, it's advisable for a beginner; especially well established shapes. Not only is it good practice to learn how, you also have a pretty specific standard to which to measure your work. That being said, I would expect credit be given due if copying an original shape/pipe from another maker if the end goal is an exact replica. It is otherwise acceptable to create shapes inspired by other maker's work and, in fact, is going to be inevitable.

[Growley]

Print, cut, trace, make pipe. That's the way to do it. Copy like it's going out of style. After a while you'll see a pipe and find your own way to make it better...or at least more "you". When you get good enough that you're making them so close to the original that the original maker is getting ticked, then it's probably time to start doing your own thing.



So, to be a bit more specific: If I'm working on a copy pipe, I find a great side shot, print it out, cut it out, trace it on the block and use that as my starting place.

I've got a customer who just requested a Bo Nordh (of course)...so I'll be doing this exact same method when I try to replicate his pipe.

Artists of all medias learn from the masters by trying to copy their work.

[RadDavis]

If any of you motherfuckers copy my shit, well let's just say I know some people.

Nuff said?

Rad

[the rev]

first pipe I am doing next is one of yours... what are you gonna do you old bastard?

rev

[The Smoking Yeti]

Good luck Rev- Rad still is shooting product shots in film- and processing it in a cat-piss compound. Good luck using THOSE photos for reference!

Miscellaneous trivia aside, I think of learning to make pipes as a lot like learning to build with Legos. Get a new Lego set, follow the instructions, try to see what the designer was thinking- why did this brick go here? etc. If you study as you copy, you'll learn a lot more than how to made a Rad Davis pot pipe.

[WCannoy]

That being said, I would expect credit be given due if copying an original shape/pipe from another maker if the end goal is an exact replica.

Having had some of my work copied, I agree. If you are copying something really unique, really distinct, give credit where credit is due. If you are copying _______'s billiard, as opposed to _______'s billiard, then maybe not so much.

I can't say that I was ever one to do any copying. I never had time... too many of my own ideas that I was just itching to etch into briar.

For the original question though: Bad form to copy? No, it's done all the time. Many carvers find it somewhat flattering to be copied. But it takes alot of effort to create a shape worthy of copying, and once that is acheived, it has a value all it's own. To copy without giving credit tends to devalue (not neccesarily in price, but in spirit and concept) the original designer's work, and undercut his efforts.

[wdteipen]

If any of you motherfuckers copy my shit, well let's just say I know some people.

Nuff said?

Rad

Psycho: The name's Francis Soyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.
Leon: Ooooooh.
Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. And I don't like nobody touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. Also, I don't like nobody touching me. Now, any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you.
Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.

[Sasquatch]

I think the general attitude is "go ahead and copy so-and-so (or me) because you haven't the skills or experience to get even close, so it's not like you are taking food off the table."

I've "copied" a Satou brandy about 10 times now, and never got even really close to Smio Satou's original. And he doesn't lose any sleep over it, I'm absolutely sure.

So copy away, and by the time your copy is actually a copy, and not a lumpy wanna-be, you'll be a good and established pipe maker in your own right.

[the rev]

thanks... I think

rev

[WCannoy]

I think the general attitude is "go ahead and copy so-and-so (or me) because you haven't the skills or experience to get even close, so it's not like you are taking food off the table."

I've "copied" a Satou brandy about 10 times now, and never got even really close to Smio Satou's original. And he doesn't lose any sleep over it, I'm absolutely sure.

Ok, so, I was at the Chicago show one year when a notable Danish maker took a liking to one of my designs and asked me if he could "make a pipe inspired by my shape". Well, I was quite flattered and gave him the go-ahead. I sold my pipe at the show, I recall, for $600.
The next year, at the Chicago show, the Danish maker showed me the pipe he had made. It was not just inspired by my design, it was the same thing! Still flattered, I asked if I could show it around a little bit and he gave permission...
So here I am running around the show floor with this guy's pipe, seeking out my friends who had seen my pipe a year earlier, and mostly quite proud that he had copied my design. (You gotta understand, this is like building a car in your garage, then Ferrarri asks to copy the design)... I showed it to a couple of my retailers who were in attendance, and even the guy who bought my pipe a year earlier.
So after running around the show floor franticaly for a while with this pipe in my sweaty paws, I decided it was time to return it to its maker. I took it back to his table, then I asked the question... "So, how much are you asking for the pipe?"
Come to find out, I was running around with a $6000 pipe. Yep, ten times what I sold mine for.
But here's the kicker: Much ado was made about the Danish man's pipe that year, with applaud and accolades, wonder and amazement reaching far out into the worldwide pipe community... but with no mention of the origin of the design.

Am I still flattered that my design was copied? Yep.
Did it take food off of my table or money out of my pocket? Nope.
But in the end, it felt a little off... bittersweet...

[the rev]

Walt, I personally think that is kind of fucked up. Not because you lost any money, but if someone is willing to make money off of you, then they should atleast give you a bit of a hand up. But that is me, I am an idiot.

rev

[Leus]

But in the end, it felt a little off... bittersweet...

That's human nature kicking in, nothing more. Don't let that feeling sink in. Your initial conclusions are right: an accomplished master took your design and copied it. So what if he doesn't mention you in the credits? You know you are doing something right.

And, who knows? Perhaps this is a telling sign that you need to up your prices a little bit...

Cheers!