Lining the mortis

[Albert.A]

So, I just had a thought. On the pipe I recently posted in the gallery, the mortis was lined with delrin because of necessity (toxic wood etc.) and I found the fit between the delrin lining and the ebonite tenon to be really smooth. Now, of course one can achieve an equally smooth fit between briar and tenon with careful lathe work. However, I thought about it a little more, and isn't it true that delrin is much more dimentionally stable than briar, and if so, wouldn't that mean, that by lining the mortis with delrin, one can (at least partially) eliminate the problem of a stem-mortis fit becoming tighter or looser over time? Or have I gotten the whole thing wrong and it's acctually the tenon that changes over time making the fit looser or tighter?

Thoughts on this? Is there any disadvantages with doing this exept the little bit of extra time it would take, and that it becomes one more component the pipe can fail in (glue joint between briar mortis and delring lining)?

I did a search on the subject but didn't find anything, so if this has been discussed before I apologize.

/Albert

[wdteipen]

I think you've nailed it. There is a lot of benefit to having a Delrin mortise sleeve. You've stated the pros and the cons already. I've done it on several pipes. The problem you'll run into is that the pipe collecting crowd doesn't do well with change in general so you'll get mixed feelings on it and it may lessen the number of potential buyers. Selling it as a better solution is the key.

[sandahlpipe]

There are definitely some advantages to a Delrin sleeve in the mortise. Like Wayne said, if you do it, you're going to have to sell it with those advantages in mind. Some collectors like pipes that have only natural components to it. They won't buy a pipe with Delrin or acrylic shank extensions or anything that isn't a natural product.

For me, keeping as broad a potential customer base as possible is important. I think doing a Delrin sleeve would limit my potential buyers unnecessarily. You can still get a great mortise and tenon fit that is stable by properly dried wood and smooth mating surfaces.


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[oklahoma red]

I like Delrin. Period, the end.
OK, not quite the end. I use it on everything and I thread it into the stem. If the design of my stem is such that there is a good possibility of cutting into the end of the tenon (such as a short saddle) then I'll make the tenon integral with the stem and put a Delrin sleeve in the shank.
I also make the secondary chambers of R-Cs entirely from Delrin. Makes them super easy to clean and prevents the possibility of any bleed thru from the chamber to the outside of the shank when the walls are thin. And I agree that using a Delrin sleeve makes it much less likely that the fit between the tenon and mortise will either loosen up or get too tight with environmental changes. Generally speaking the fit between two man-made materials is more stable than between one man-made and one natural. Delrin, as we all know, is self-lubricating and does not absorb moisture and that is why it is used for the guts of modern faucet valves.
I like Delrin. Period, the end.

[LatakiaLover]

One reason why high-end collectors shy away from Delrin components is because plastic parts only solve problems for pipe makers, not pipe smokers---as in, there's nothing that needs doing on a pipe that a properly executed integral tenon and unlined mortise don't do just fine---so, their presence implies that the maker used a crutch, lacks skill, is lazy, or is trying to cut corners.

Whether or not that is true doesn't matter. It is a perception.

Another reason is that Delrin diminishes a pipe's old-timey vibe and feel. Briar pipes have changed little for over a century, and many of today's smokers like being the torch carriers of tradition. To them, plastic parts in a briar pipe are like a quartz movement in a railroad watch.

[oklahoma red]

One reason why high-end collectors shy away from Delrin components is because plastic parts only solve problems for pipe makers, not pipe smokers---as in, there's nothing that needs doing on a pipe that a properly executed integral tenon and unlined mortise don't do just fine---so, their presence implies that the maker used a crutch, lacks skill, is lazy, or is trying to cut corners.

Whether or not that is true doesn't matter. It is a perception.

Another reason is that Delrin diminishes a pipe's old-timey vibe and feel. Briar pipes have changed little for over a century, and many of today's smokers like being the torch carriers of tradition. To them, plastic parts in a briar pipe are like a quartz movement in a railroad watch.

Very good points. I still like Delrin.
But, were it not for innovations we'd still be riding hay-burners. Yes, there are those that would argue that would be a good thing.
Would you want to ride a nag 1300 miles to Steve Norse's get-together because it feels old-timey? (Better start now George and be sure and take your rubber do-nut).
My personal opinion: there is good in a blend of old and new technology in pipes.
So I'll put that in my pipe and smoke it.

[LatakiaLover]

I don't disagree that innovation can be a good thing. But you've dabbled in a bit of false equivalence to make your argument, I'm afraid.

Cars and horses are indeed both transportation, but their performance is not equal.

Delrin tenons and mortises (morti?), on the other hand, AT BEST only equal traditional materials when properly made/installed. And when they're not, a number of post-purchase problems result. In addition, their use creates a categorical limitation design-wise---the "dodge the bulge" thing when used for saddle stems.

[Albert.A]

Well, I myself agree both with what George is saying, and what Mr. Oklahoma thinks (sorry, don't know your name ). George I agree with (what you wrote that is, since you just stated a general perception amongst pipe collectors, not necessarily your opinion) because I myself much appreciate an old-timey feel in things, not just when it comes to pipes but in general. I do however think that sometimes if there is a modern solution to an old problem, not necessarily the problem we are disscusing here because it hardly is a problem at all, but something more serious (I have no examples), there is no sence in not using that solution just because it's modern. Or put more simply, I believe there are ways to succesfully combine new and old.

With that said, I feel that unless someone speciffically asks me to do something like a delrin lining or something like that, I will probably not do it if it's generally looked down upon in the serious pipe community, because even if no collector in his/her right mind would give my pipes even a first look at the moment, one can never know how far this will go (shoot for the stars, right? ) and it would be a shame to early on build a reputation that is in some way negative/ to be using methods that imediatelly excludes a group of potential buyers, just by using said methods.

Thats my view at the moment.

[Albert.A]

Sorry George, you posted just before me, so in my post I'm not responding to anything you just wrote, but I believe that morti is the correct way to write it, but hey, how the heck should I know, I'm just a swede after all!

[Vermont Freehand]

morti?

word of the day right there!

[Tyler]

It has been asserted that Delrin is the answer to a pipe problem, but pipe collectors are too curmudgeonly to accept change: therefore, a superior pipe is being ignored/cast aside/under utilized. Does that sum it up?

I'm not totally buying it, and here's why: what's being ignored is that the "innovations" are generally happening from newer makers. Then, when those pipes don't sell the easily, the tendency is to blame the buyer. What's perhaps not being considered is that these are pipes by newer makers. There are a lot of reasons newer makers don't sell pipes, but I'm going to argue that technological advances isn't a major one.

Let me offer this thought experiment: if Gracik/Tokutomi/Maenz/Ivarsson/<insert your favorite established high-grade maker here> said that they had discovered a new mortise tenon system that was vastly superior, namely it was a Delrin lined mortise, do you think he would have trouble selling his pipes? I'm going to assert that answer is no, not one bit. In fact, I'd predict a quick shift in the whole market in pursuit of this superior way.

In case it's not clear, my point is this, it's not that the market is blindly resistant, rather it's that the introducers of innovation have no significant standing in the market. (As an aside, I think it's possible that once newer makers gain standing, they've learned that the innovation isn't as necessary as they thought. They learn the issues that they were solving are not really significant now that they've learned a trick or two.)

That's NOT to say that there is not room for innovation. I'm quite certain there is, and I've benefitted from many creative makers over the years. What I'm saying is, don't assume the market is too dumb to recognize the better mouse trap, assume you don't see the flaws in the mouse trap you made.

As for Delrin, stick with it if you have found it superior. Keep improving your mouse trap. If you make amazing pipes, I can pretty much promise you Delrin (innovation) will not hurt your sales.

[LatakiaLover]

An interesting---and I think accurate---analysis by Mr. Tyler.

Delrin parts are a Whippersnapper thing, so are seen as categorically suspect by Old Timers for that reason alone. If suddenly the icon Danes started using them, there's little question the same Old Timers would see things differently.

However, re-inventing wheels is something that's coded in Whippersnapper DNA (regardless of the field), and while sometimes better wheels result, usually not. Then, as the Whippersnappers become Old Timers themselves, they come to understand how and why things became standardized in the first place, and the need to innovate and be different for its own sake is replaced by other priorities.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Whether the "usually not" holds true and the popularity of Delrin parts fades, or they beat the odds and become the new standard.

[oklahoma red]

Good points being made.
To keep it going a bit: Some say Delrin is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and that in order to be acceptable by high-end collectors pipes must be "pure" and true to their heritage. So, where does the usage of bamboo and stainless steel tubing fit into that picture? Can bamboo truly be accepted as traditional? Or, do high-end collectors avoid bamboo like the plague? I cannot say who is credited with the first usage of bamboo nor how said pipe was assembled but I dare say that 304 stainless, seamless tubing would not be considered traditional. Ergo stainless tubing must then be a solution to a problem that did exist and is smiled upon by all. At some point in the past did stainless tubing bear a stigma? Did hard rubber have a hard time years ago being accepted as a viable stem material over amber or other "traditional" materials?
It would seem to me that the only true traditional material in a pipe is the briar. Everything else attached to that piece of wood would have to be considered an innovation at some point.
Any thoughts?

[LatakiaLover]

OKRed --

Vulcanite was indeed new at one time, but because it was clearly and demonstrably superior to horn, wood, or amber, its adoption was seen as progress.

Bamboo was accepted straight away because it's a naturally occurring material as well as aesthetically pleasing (when well handled). Since stainless steel tubing was necessary to make bamboo work for strength/low bulk reasons (vulcanite is too weak for pipe use if cut small & thin-walled), it rode in on bamboo's coat tails.

Delrin tenons, though, are neither superior or necessary, just different. They also suffer from the "beginner's option" image. (Cutting first-rate integral tenons is the most formidable technical barrier to entry in pipe making.)

For the record, I have no dog in this hunt. I do whatever the situation calls for, and/or whatever a customer wants. I'm just passing on what I've seen & heard in the PipeWorld.

[sandahlpipe]

Bamboo is a natural material. In that respect, it's not that odd. All sorts of materials are used on pipes with no questions asked. Ebonite, amber, and rubber are also natural products, though they are processed to be useable to some degree or another. Plastic, whether in acrylic or delrin form is used significantly less in high grade pipes. Perhaps it's a heritage thing. Maybe the younger guys will set new trends with delrin-lined mortises. For me, though, the heritage factor was huge in why I started smoking a pipe. I'm sure not everyone is like me, but I know there are others who get into it for the same reason. Could I be persuaded that delrin is the way to go? Maybe. Stainless steel tenons do solve a real problem, since you can't make a tenon thin enough for pencil shanks and bamboo shanks where the tenon will be durable otherwise. If you started using stainless tenons for regular shanks, though, it would be odd.

[Ocyd]

It's adulterous and I'd rather not have glues in the business portion of my pipe but that's just my opinion.

[Tyler]

I'm not convinced by the "it's non-traditional" argument. Reverse calabashes would be my exhibit-A against that.

[caskwith]

Just for the record I have never yet had a customer ask about my tenons, my mortices or glues and finishes. When I am contacted about a pipe on my site they usually say "I want that one" and when I am asked about commissions nearly all the conversation is about shape, colour and stem colour, occasionally stem material.

[Charl]

I say do it when you have to, and that's it.