I think Billiard Number 14??

[shikano53]

Here are a few pics of billiard number, number, umm, I think about 14???
I told someone once that I had made three billiards. His response was good! Now make 40 more!!!
The rim doesn't rise in the front. It's my lousy picture taking skills. Actually it has a slight forward cant to it.
Anyway, on to number 15...

[shikano53]

Oops! Stacked billiard

[Sasquatch]

YOU critique it. What do you see in these photos? Go photo by photo.

Tune your eye, what's good, what's bad, what's asymmetrical? Look at the photos, don't go by what you think or what your hands told you about the pipe. How are your proportions? Is it a stack or not? Is it a billiard at all?

[shikano53]

Will do.

[shikano53]

Based on your question Todd, here is what I think.
I think it is a stacked, or chimney billiard but it needs refining.
The bowl is symmetrical. It has a rounded bottom or heel, the bore is cylindrical outside, except for a small amount of belly to the bowl, or more thickness where it would typically be the hottest spot during a smoke.
It needs slightly more chin? To my eye that might be misleading but I think I should have left a bit more material at the chin.
It has no forward cant.
Here are two picture guides I use for determining how I drill the bowl for forward cant. This is from Walt Connoy's tutorial on 'How to Drill a Canted Billiard"


I draw my block in a similar fashion.
A Chimney or Stack Billiard should be at least 50% taller than a classic billiard. This pipe falls into that parameter.
Stummel 50/50 split is correct
Height of bowl from shank = length of shank from bowl. Mine is about 1/8" short on the shank side.
Stem is straight
Looking at pipe from the underside it is not symmetrical. I should have removed more material much closer in to the bowl/shank junction.
Also, holding the pipe up with the chamber pointing away and looking at the underside of the pipe it is most definitely asymmetrical.
The left side is lower down than the right side. Like a person with a broken collar bone on his left shoulder.
There's my take on the pipe at a much closer look attempting to 'see' what needs to be seen.

[DocAitch]

Your self critique is pretty much spot on. I would add that the bottom rear of the bowl has a more vertical transition silhouette than the front.The entire bottom of the bowl should be part of a sphere and you should have symmetry at all oblique angles, not just the laterals.
DocAitch

[shikano53]

Thanks Doc. I'm not a mathematician, with that said, could you please explain to me what you mean by symmetry at all oblique angles not just the laterals?
As always, deeply in your debt.

[Sasquatch]

Agree with what you found, Chris, and what Doc has said.

I don't like the bowl profile at all. It's flat on the back (light blue), the top is sanded in on front and back (but not on the sides) (pale yellow line), and there's a vague and not particularly consistent curve on the front (indigo). That vagueness in shaping, where the bowl just isn't one particular idea (a stack with really straight vertical sides, for example) is the problem.





The amount of asymmetry on the bowl is pretty big, actually, this isn't nitpicking, you can see it in every picture, but this one is the most obvious:



there's 1/4" of material to come of that cheek, and that whole side of the bowl is heavier than the other side.

This is why I asked you to critique it yourself. I can tell you what's off, but you have to learn to see and fix this stuff yourself before you get a pipe finished and wonder why it looks not-quite-right in some undefinable way.

[shikano53]

Thanks Todd. Practice, practice, practice in each piece. This thread has given me a lot of good information, especially about being able to critique it myself before I apply stain and remedy the things I see.
Seeing for yourself is a vital part of the learning curve.

[shikano53]

There seems to be a wide interpretation of billiard pipes. Here are a few I looked at on Smoking Pipes and they all seem to look very different to my eye.
Here is a Savineli that to my eye, looks 'billiard' perfect.
What is the common thread to all these billiards? Is it the symmetry of each pipe? The attention to dimensioning?
Not looking to get flamed here, just my understanding.
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/esta ... _id=396281
Here is one by Hans Former
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/esta ... _id=395376
Jacono Rook Bent Billiard
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/ ... _id=380408
Nikolay Kozyrev Sandblasted Billiard
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/ ... _id=350592
Castello Billiard KK
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/ ... _id=385863

[LatakiaLover]

Get a decent billiard and try to copy it exactly.

Any time during the shaping process you can stop and hold the pipe you're working on in one hand, and the "all angle instant feedback device"---the pattern pipe---in the other. Compare side by side and respond to what you see. If you are careful, what you produce will be identical (except for the grain) to the pattern pipe.

That's it.

Then do the same thing with some other shape.

And then with another.

And another.

Repeat until a pattern pipe isn't necessary for a good result.

[shikano53]

Thanks Lat,
Again, could someone please show me or explain what the oblique and lateral angles are on the pipe? I know what oblique and lateral angles are; I just can't visualize there place on the stummel.
And any comments on the links I listed to highly expensive billiards by other well known artisans.

[Sasquatch]

I assume all Walter meant by oblique angles is just hold the pipe at different angles than direct side, direct above, direct below etc and look at it. Look at light lines, reflections, look at the symmetries (for example, as you work the chin of the bowl , you have (or should have) a round reference at the top of the bowl. So you just peek your head "past" the rim and look down the bowl, see if it's round all the way down into the chin.

None of the pipes you posted is a standard billiard. Most of them are really drifting to Brandy for shape (something the Danish billiards do a bit, they are more bottom-heavy than English billiards).

Go back to a simple pipe, no bangles, no baubles, no grain involvement. Forget about the pipe maker who is trying to make a nice pipe. And find someone who is making a billiard. Eg, a factory pipe, done right.

Here's a reasonable example.

https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/ ... _id=341343


Roughly speaking, the shank length from the bowl is about the same as the bowl height from the shank. Roughly speaking the stem length is the same as the stummel length. The bowl is fairly uniformally curved, but it's NOT just a barrel. This is a billiard proper. Everything else is some kind of variant, or just a pipe with the name "billiard" randomly attached to it because someone was too lazy to actually think about whether it's a billiard or not.

[shikano53]

Thank you guys. Appreciate the information.
Todd, next several attempts, simple it will be.

[Sasquatch]

Now you take those proportions, and do an oval shank instead.



This is now not a billiard proper but it's carrying the blood, same tight lines, nothing extra. The same gesture.

[DocAitch]

Sas understood my reference to oblique angles.
Put your left index finger in the chamber, hold the finger straight up, and rotate the pipe in steps of 5-10 degrees around your finger. Check the bowl silhouette at each of these oblique (not straight lateral or front/back) views. The sides/profiles of the silhouette should have the same curve/shape.
Looking at the bowl from the top down allows you to look at the sides of the bowl beyond the rim to see if the “bulge” is equal. This assumes your rim thickness is uniform. This is a technique I, (as a non lathe turner), use with shaping. I do this standing above my sanding wheel.
DocAitch

[shikano53]

Good info. Thank you. The next pipes are all going to be billiard attempts using the new info you all have provided.
Two thumbs up.

[wdteipen]

I agree with what's been said so far. As for the "billiard" pipes you referenced, I agree with Sas that none of them are true billiards. The Savinelli is the closest being a true billiard variant. It is a variant because the shank is too long for a traditional billiard. The Former, Jacono, and Kozyrev are all brandy's. The Castello is a pot that looks like a failed attempt at a Castello shape 55.