logo and stamp question

[ScoJo]

What did you end up using, Ben?

[Nick]

BS Pipes I hope!

Hehehe

[mahaffy]

Ben, you considered a lowercase "b" of course, for the first logo? The other thought, Scofield has a more formal impact than B Scofield . . . as though you're saying "Hey, there's only ONE Scofield, man, and that's me!"

[souljer]

Hello all, I've got sort of the same problem.

Feels weird expressing it here; a graphics problem on a pipe forum.

I've been an artist for about 20 years and have always signed my paintings with my first name in script. Sort of like "Crosby" only not so pretty.

Then I started some pipe related stuff and gave the things the same name as my dedicated website for them: TotemStar.

Now I'm trying to make some pipes and one of the main hang-ups I'm having is developing some nomenclature. I've thought about numbering and dating (year only) each pipe, having a grade marking (three or five tier probably) and would like to include my country (USA).

That all seems like a lot, but I've seen some pipes with a lot more (Castello seems to be covered with stamps, for example). However that is only part of the problem. I am now at a loss as to what to NAME the pipes. As handmade art do I stamp/sign my pipes with my name, or do I put TotemStar or TotemStar.com on them instead?

Or some combination of the two with "designed by" or "For" connecting the names?

Or it doesn't matter and no one reads nomenclature anymore anyway...

Any suggestions and or personal feelings would be appreciated.

[alexanderfrese]

As to all I believe and repeatedly said about emotional design:
Don't put totemstar.com on your pipes. They are not 32 bit, they are not running in a burst mode (hope so…), they don't have a broad band anywhere, you don't have to update ’em on a regular basis to get rid of all those bugs…
Pipes are on the other end of the world as far as any digital means come into concern.
If someone taking a pipe with a totemstar pipes stamp in his hands and then (if interested) searches for your website, that term should be easy to google. There he is on your doorstep!

So you call yourself totemstar. That's it! Is there any connection to any native indian thing within that "totem"? A simple star drawn in a way it would be carved into the rough wood of a totem pole might make a logo. As simple as that!

For any add-ons: Put yourself into the perspective of a possible buyer. All typography is meant to carry information, and all letters not making any sense will disturb the reader. Senseless information may also be redundant information. It makes sense, but it is possibly unnecessary. All lettering that makes some sense will possibly irritate, if the meaning is not really strong. Signs tend to loose their meaning for the recipient if used in inflationary manner.

Nomenclature?

Adding a year/number: No one starts with that in the beginning. I believe, it sounds a bit big-mouthed. If you don't have a chronology in your pipe making over some years, then adding years as a stamp might feel strange – at least to me being a bit picky about these things. Everything is web-based today (that's why you wanted that totemstar.com on your pipe…). So list up your pipe history here, all models, sold or not. Some member of this board (I can't recall at the moment) does so, and it is very interesting for the visitor!
Here on that web presentation you might also number those pipes. It is not interesting for the customer to see some ordinal number on his pipe. Might throw up some unwanted questions: If low – might be a beginner's thing? What sort of impression would a number like 329 make on a buyer? I can't think of any. Sure you have made 328 pipes before that, but everyone knows nobody would really start with #1, so this is obsolete. You don't make series of one model. Knowing you have got #3 of a limited edition of 25 might make some (negligible) sense for a collector.
But all in all, ordinal numbers sort of work against the market's perception of pipe making being a real artistic, individual, emotional, magic thing.

Grading:
If you can set up a comprehensive grading system (so the customer will realize differences between the pipes otherwise not clearly recognizable), then it might make sense. Grading helps with the argue about the final sales price, no more, no less. Many disussions on this board stated clear that finding the lines to seperate these grades is really hard, especially if you don't have considerable experience as to which detail in the pipe you made makes which difference in the pipes "behaviour", it's quality, when sold. You have to look back over a considerable portion of your work to sort them in those grades. Otherwise you can not be sure (so is the buyer!) that you don't grade a pipe falsely just because you feel like it belongs to that (otherwise empty) grade. One has to have some sort of reference to match a new thing to.
To my eye, it is completely overdone to grade smooth, rusticated or blasted pipes by giving these classes names or signs. You don't write "red" on a red Ferrari. So you don't put "fast" on it or "expensive", since all these attributes are obvious to the possible client.
To some extent this also goes for pipes extended by means of adding anything to it like stem extensions, inlays of any sort… You can see that those made some more work and thus make a higher sales price.
But seperating a pipe from another that (besides personal taste for shape or colur) is otherwise not distiguishable for the customer's eye (or hand) – that's the only point where grading makes sense to me. As long as there is no reason, don't grade. I strongly believe, that grading one's pipes too early in the process of starting a business is somewhat contraindicated. Pipe conoisseurs will know about the delicate experience gathered over years that is necessary to build a grading system, so they won't believe in a grading system that is set up early.
If you want a grading: Use your star emblem. 1 to 3 stars should farely be enough. If it is difficult to define classes for grading, it is impossible to define 5 classes.

Country of origin?
Hmmm. Where do you want to sell it to? There might be some attitude within the US to support your local pipe maker. So these buyers might be attracted by some "Made in the USA" on the pipe. But please don't try to engrave some stars’n’stripes on the pipe. Leave that for the package. Same goes for bald eagle impressions of any kind.
Other intl. sellers won't be too interested in that fact. Or even be distracted, since the world outside your country might be a bit less focussed on that national concerns – to put it mildly.
Some thirty years ago the Danish pipe style trend started, and some years later here in Germany you could sell any peace of wood as a pipe as long as some "Made in Denmark" was stamped to it. But Danish style had some reputation and some revolutionary new visual ideas then. As we discussed elsewhere, a typical American pipe style is yet to be developped. Formal or by means of technical quality. So for the intl. market the US-thing won't really help.
If I would opt for pipemaking to make a living, I would try to show my pride for the pipes I made, not so much for my country, allthough that "Made in Germany" still makes a good sound in some ears.
BTW: Totemstar Pipes! Where else in the world should it be than in the US? Only thing to think about: If you consider some strong American-Indian connotation within that name being unwanted (you don't make any tribal stuff), re-think that name!

You said it yourself. Too much is rather annoying. So make it less.
One to three stars. Totemstar underneath. This will make a sign that has a face of it's own and will easily be recognizable amongst others. What else do you need? Don't fumble too much with all those options before they become necessary.

[flix]

Alex,

I really appreciate the effort you put into your analysis. Thank you!

--Michael

[souljer]

Hello Alex,

Thanks for your ideas and feelings. This is something that has been difficult for me as it's not just a design, it's also a choice as to how much information do I want to put on the pipe and deciding on something that will still make sense and be valid in the future. Ironically if I cared less, it would be easier. Just sign my name and that's it.

So you call yourself totemstar. That's it! Is there any connection to any native indian thing within that "totem"? A simple star drawn in a way it would be carved into the rough wood of a totem pole might make a logo. As simple as that!

The reason I was thinking of using my name instead of the website name is because each pipe will be handmade. All other things I've made by hand (like paintings) I sign. Also if I made something I feel I should put my name on it as a way of showing I will be responsible for it.

For any add-ons: Put yourself into the perspective of a possible buyer. All typography is meant to carry information, and all letters not making any sense will disturb the reader. Senseless information may also be redundant information. It makes sense, but it is possibly unnecessary. All lettering that makes some sense will possibly irritate, if the meaning is not really strong. Signs tend to loose their meaning for the recipient if used in inflationary manner.

This all makes sense but not on pipes as I understand "the reader". If you are making a brochure or logo or essay in a magazine, I agree with you. Regarding pipes, I don't think that "all letters not making sense will disturb the reader." I think that people expect to find some sort of stampings and accept that they may not understand the meaning of all of them. If they see the recognized name, perhaps place of origin, and a few other things that are not understood, they are accepted in one of two ways. The casual smoker will simply ignore all text not understood, because they really don't care much beyond the name and maybe not even that. They just like the shape, size, color and price. Period. On the other hand the collector will care and even if all the nomenclature is not understood, I believe they would either appreciate that it's there but not worry about it's meaning or find out what all the extra letters and numbers mean. Perhaps this is part of their fun in collecting.

Nomenclature?

Adding a year/number: No one starts with that in the beginning. I believe, it sounds a bit big-mouthed. If you don't have a chronology in your pipe making over some years, then adding years as a stamp might feel strange – at least to me being a bit picky about these things.

I agree with both statements. The first applies if you assume the more common reason of ego. I just want to keep track of what pipes were made first, second, etc. It's easy to loose track, for me at least, once I get 4 or 5 floating around. When one starts out it seems like it will be easy to keep track of, but I find it difficult.

Then the more I thought about it the more I came to your second statement. I'd rather get it right straight away than add something like that later. Over time it will seem less "big mouthed" and more common sense. "Longer in the short run, but shorter in the long run".

Everything is web-based today (that's why you wanted that totemstar.com on your pipe…). So list up your pipe history here, all models, sold or not. Some member of this board (I can't recall at the moment) does so, and it is very interesting for the visitor!
Here on that web presentation you might also number those pipes. It is not interesting for the customer to see some ordinal number on his pipe. Might throw up some unwanted questions: If low – might be a beginner's thing? What sort of impression would a number like 329 make on a buyer? I can't think of any. Sure you have made 328 pipes before that, but everyone knows nobody would really start with #1, so this is obsolete.

I would and do plan a web based catalogue of work, as I already have of other work I've done. That's a good idea.

Perhaps the casual smoker does not care to "see an ordinal number" -meaning numerical sequence I presume. However I believe, based on 20 years of making artwork, that collectors do care and appreciate that. Eltang stated on a P&T last year that he did not want to create a grading scale, but the market demanded it, for example. And if I indeed do number from #1, it would have meaning.

You don't make series of one model. Knowing you have got #3 of a limited edition of 25 might make some (negligible) sense for a collector.
But all in all, ordinal numbers sort of work against the market's perception of pipe making being a real artistic, individual, emotional, magic thing.

I see it the opposite. Numbering them makes each one individual. There can be only one #1, one #2 or even; there can be only one #329!

Grading:
If you can set up a comprehensive grading system (so the customer will realize differences between the pipes otherwise not clearly recognizable), then it might make sense. Grading helps with the argue about the final sales price, no more, no less. Many discussions on this board stated clear that finding the lines to separate these grades is really hard, especially if you don't have considerable experience as to which detail in the pipe you made makes which difference in the pipes "behavior", it's quality, when sold. You have to look back over a considerable portion of your work to sort them in those grades. Otherwise you can not be sure (so is the buyer!) that you don't grade a pipe falsely just because you feel like it belongs to that (otherwise empty) grade. One has to have some sort of reference to match a new thing to.
To my eye, it is completely overdone to grade smooth, rusticated or blasted pipes by giving these classes names or signs. You don't write "red" on a red Ferrari. So you don't put "fast" on it or "expensive", since all these attributes are obvious to the possible client.
To some extent this also goes for pipes extended by means of adding anything to it like stem extensions, inlays of any sort… You can see that those made some more work and thus make a higher sales price.
But separating a pipe from another that (besides personal taste for shape or color) is otherwise not distiguishable for the customer's eye (or hand) – that's the only point where grading makes sense to me. As long as there is no reason, don't grade. I strongly believe, that grading one's pipes too early in the process of starting a business is somewhat contraindicated. Pipe conoisseurs will know about the delicate experience gathered over years that is necessary to build a grading system, so they won't believe in a grading system that is set up early.
If you want a grading: Use your star emblem. 1 to 3 stars should farely be enough. If it is difficult to define classes for grading, it is impossible to define 5 classes.

I agree with most of that, and would add that grading too early could be a mistake if one does not really know their own work and what is good about it. It's easy to stand back and say, "That came out good." However it's another thing to know why it came out good. Why it's a good design, etc. At an early stage I think you are right, collectors may be wary of a system that is new and they are not familiar with. All I can say is I have to start somewhere. It's got to be new and unfamiliar sometime, so why not start with #1 and get on with it? By 100 it will not even be a second thought to them, unless of course I just started numbering and grading at 99.

Country of origin?
Hmmm. Where do you want to sell it to? There might be some attitude within the US to support your local pipe maker. So these buyers might be attracted by some "Made in the USA" on the pipe. But please don't try to engrave some stars’n’stripes on the pipe. Leave that for the package. Same goes for bald eagle impressions of any kind.
Other intl. sellers won't be too interested in that fact. Or even be distracted, since the world outside your country might be a bit less focussed on that national concerns – to put it mildly.
Some thirty years ago the Danish pipe style trend started, and some years later here in Germany you could sell any peace of wood as a pipe as long as some "Made in Denmark" was stamped to it. But Danish style had some reputation and some revolutionary new visual ideas then. As we discussed elsewhere, a typical American pipe style is yet to be developped. Formal or by means of technical quality. So for the intl. market the US-thing won't really help.
If I would opt for pipemaking to make a living, I would try to show my pride for the pipes I made, not so much for my country, allthough that "Made in Germany" still makes a good sound in some ears.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense to some extent, however you yourself go back and forth on the point and I have to say your last statement says it all. That could apply to any country. What if I start making pipes in Germany? Only then it's okay?, LOL.

BTW: Totemstar Pipes! Where else in the world should it be than in the US? Only thing to think about: If you consider some strong American-Indian connotation within that name being unwanted (you don't make any tribal stuff), re-think that name!

While you are correct in understanding that "Totem" is a native american word (from North America mostly, like Alaska, btw) you assume that others may be as educated as yourself. I don't know that everyone would know that.

As for a strong Native American connotation... guess where tobacco pipes come from? There is a history here that is archeologically proven to go back at least 5000 years. Pipes and cigars ARE Native American things.

No I don't make any "tribal stuff" -whatever that is supposed to be. I am tribal stuff. My family has native american ancestry. I chose that name on purpose to bring back some of that forgotten spirit. The dictionary states that Totem is: "An animal, plant or natural object serving as a symbol of a clan or family; a representation of this. A venerated symbol." The idea was that we all share a universal pipe (the idea of pipes, friendship and community. That's why we are all here and reading this forum) and that pipe is a totem of our "family" and is certainly a venerated symbol, what ever shape we choose.

You said it yourself. Too much is rather annoying. So make it less.
One to three stars. Totemstar underneath. This will make a sign that has a face of it's own and will easily be recognizable amongst others. What else do you need? Don't fumble too much with all those options before they become necessary.

Bringing it back to the subject... I'm still thinking about what to include or not. How information can be combined to take up less room. My greatest concern here is not saying too much, it's using too much room. If I could say all of the above in one line under my name or TotemStar (still not sure if I should sign them) I would.

Thanks for your input. I wish you were closer so I could show you what I have done so far. I was looking for some sort of Arts & Crafts typography for the name, but could not find any. I ended up using the common Papyrus which is not ugly, just not the old time 1930s feel I was looking for.

[alexanderfrese]

Hello Alex,
Thanks for your ideas and feelings. This is something that has been difficult for me as it's not just a design, it's also a choice as to how much information do I want to put on the pipe and deciding on something that will still make sense and be valid in the future. Ironically if I cared less, it would be easier. Just sign my name and that's it.

Yeah. I for myself believe, that a little less intellectual re- and re- and reconsidering some thoughts might help from time to time. I am far on your side, since I tend to make those sort of decisions as complex as possible before really making them. Sometimes I wish I could put some part of my head to standby for some of those processes… But sometimes I feel haunted by all that tinking.
But since design follows (allthough many won't obey that quasi "holy" rule) the way a desired communication (be it visual or typographical) goes, at least some thoughts about these way are better to make before some design step.

The reason I was thinking of using my name instead of the website name is because each pipe will be handmade. All other things I've made by hand (like paintings) I sign. Also if I made something I feel I should put my name on it as a way of showing I will be responsible for it.

Let it be you Name, let it be a brand-name. Each one will do fine in the long run. Using your name might cause some (maybe) wanted crossover with your state as an artist in other fields.

This all makes sense but not on pipes as I understand "the reader". If you are making a brochure or logo or essay in a magazine, I agree with you. Regarding pipes, I don't think that "all letters not making sense will disturb the reader." I think that people expect to find some sort of stampings and accept that they may not understand the meaning of all of them. If they see the recognized name, perhaps place of origin, and a few other things that are not understood, they are accepted in one of two ways. The casual smoker will simply ignore all text not understood, because they really don't care much beyond the name and maybe not even that. They just like the shape, size, color and price. Period. On the other hand the collector will care and even if all the nomenclature is not understood, I believe they would either appreciate that it's there but not worry about it's meaning or find out what all the extra letters and numbers mean. Perhaps this is part of their fun in collecting.

Hmm, I tend to disagree on that. We are too much used to the way we perceive information that comes in letters. This "common reading sense" comes from the printed matter you mentioned, but in our perception, it lasts much further. Redundant information still tends to irritate (on the negative side), even if not found on a white piece of paper.
I agree, that some sort of collector may have some fun in some crypto-nomenclature. But I fear that this part of the client’s group is rather small.

I agree with both statements. The first applies if you assume the more common reason of ego. I just want to keep track of what pipes were made first, second, etc. It's easy to loose track, for me at least, once I get 4 or 5 floating around. When one starts out it seems like it will be easy to keep track of, but I find it difficult.

Then the more I thought about it the more I came to your second statement. I'd rather get it right straight away than add something like that later. Over time it will seem less "big mouthed" and more common sense. "Longer in the short run, but shorter in the long run".

Yes. Though still a year-based stamp still shouts oud loud. May be a matter of taste. But if you are sure, that you make 2006 pipes that you like to be reminded of in 2010, then I agreee: Start now. No need to hesitate.

I would and do plan a web based catalogue of work, as I already have of other work I've done. That's a good idea.

Yep. Everyone might be able to find his Totemstar pipe in some sort of catalogue, like in the documentation of an artist, or in some line of family genealogy. I like that thought.

Perhaps the casual smoker does not care to "see an ordinal number" -meaning numerical sequence I presume. However I believe, based on 20 years of making artwork, that collectors do care and appreciate that. Eltang stated on a P&T last year that he did not want to create a grading scale, but the market demanded it, for example. And if I indeed do number from #1, it would have meaning.

To some extent, a ordinal number system and the year doubles the info. If you have the feeling that you don't want to overstamp your pipes, then a numbering and a reference list (web-based) for the corrosponding year might be enough.

I see it the opposite. Numbering them makes each one individual. There can be only one #1, one #2 or even; there can be only one #329!

I had been thinking about the numberring as "#5 of 25" for graphic art work.

I agree with most of that, and would add that grading too early could be a mistake if one does not really know their own work and what is good about it. It's easy to stand back and say, "That came out good." However it's another thing to know why it came out good. Why it's a good design, etc. At an early stage I think you are right, collectors may be wary of a system that is new and they are not familiar with. All I can say is I have to start somewhere. It's got to be new and unfamiliar sometime, so why not start with #1 and get on with it? By 100 it will not even be a second thought to them, unless of course I just started numbering and grading at 99.

Uhm, grading and numbering are meant to be two different things, or do we misunderstand each other?

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense to some extent, however you yourself go back and forth on the point and I have to say your last statement says it all. That could apply to any country. What if I start making pipes in Germany? Only then it's okay?, LOL.

Nope. I personally do give a %&§* about nations of any kind. Which does not mean we can't and shouldn’t live up to the differences within and between different societies and cultures. But I don't put any stress on it. What I wanted to say is: There maybe a marketing plus in "Made in the USA" within the US. If this is what you intend to have as your market, OK. If you opt for a wider international clientele, it may be not. I don't want to judge any thoughts behind or even reasoning that statement. I do not intend any US-bashing from my "Old Europe" point of view. So don't try to flame me on that. Only if a country has gained intl. reputation for some goods produced there, such labels will help sell other goods, maybe not even questioning their quality. Would you buy anything labelled "Made in Greece" (or any other country) that you never heard of as the origin of something special? I don not want to state, that the US never made something special. But the US is not a country known for it's pipes (though maybe on a way), so this label does not (yet) add any value ouside the US.

While you are correct in understanding that "Totem" is a native american word (from North America mostly, like Alaska, btw) you assume that others may be as educated as yourself. I don't know that everyone would know that.

I think, it is a bit more difficult. If the term is known even in less educated minds, the associations might be coming from some chlidren's clichee perception of American Indian tribal elements (at least here in Europe). Those perceptions may be far away from the correct definitions, but for the German language, a Totem will be American Indian for 49 out of 50 people you ask on the street. They will hardly know anything about the real backgrounds (sometimes we are less clever than we tend to make ourselves) of a Totem as you layed out later, but we consumed a fair portion of American Western-B-Movies. So all we know is that "Totem-pole" which may even be a clichee. But it sticks together like glue.

As for a strong Native American connotation... guess where tobacco pipes come from? There is a history here that is archeologically proven to go back at least 5000 years. Pipes and cigars ARE Native American things.

You're right. As for the clichee I mentioned above, it may be that someone opening a "Totemstar pipe brochure" might expect those "traditional" pipes.

No I don't make any "tribal stuff" -whatever that is supposed to be. I am tribal stuff. My family has native american ancestry. I chose that name on purpose to bring back some of that forgotten spirit. The dictionary states that Totem is: "An animal, plant or natural object serving as a symbol of a clan or family; a representation of this. A venerated symbol." The idea was that we all share a universal pipe (the idea of pipes, friendship and community. That's why we are all here and reading this forum) and that pipe is a totem of our "family" and is certainly a venerated symbol, what ever shape we choose.

If we all knew about those underlying elements, it might make things easier. But we don't – educated or not. So the viewer might be misleaden by the term "Totem". Not because the term is wrong, but because of the viewer's kitschy clichees. Believe me, I was not trying to put any negative in the use of the term "tribal stuff". Who am I not to run into that clichees? Just take me as an example for a possible misunderstanding on the client's side.

Bringing it back to the subject... I'm still thinking about what to include or not. How information can be combined to take up less room. My greatest concern here is not saying too much, it's using too much room. If I could say all of the above in one line under my name or TotemStar (still not sure if I should sign them) I would.

Allthough the Star is a rather universal symbol, it does have some strong connotation with the US. E.g. many people outside the US probably know that your flag is called "Stars and Stripes".
Saying less leaves room for misunderstandings. But if those misinterpretations are not the majority and don't leave a negative touch – I would still go for a sign that can be misinterpreted positively. If 6 of 10 viewers find the star to be an American symbol – fine. If some other 2 are reminded of an fine, well aged Brandy – this still is within the field of sensual pleasures (like pipe smoking) and may be accepted. If someone simply sees the stars in the eveneing sky, this is still a positive connotation. I cannot think of a negative interpretation when dealing with a star-based system.

Thanks for your input. I wish you were closer so I could show you what I have done so far. I was looking for some sort of Arts & Crafts typography for the name, but could not find any. I ended up using the common Papyrus which is not ugly, just not the old time 1930s feel I was looking for.

It is a pleasure for me to contribute to a discussion – even to a dispute. Sharing our thoughts is the only way to understand each other. It still fascinates me to discuss with people on the other side of the globe. I sometimes wish I could meet you all. Who knows.

[obie]

Hey Alex, as a graphic designer by trade I can't tell you how much I appreciate the depth of thought and expertise you brought to this topic. Spot on. Names and logos are far more important than a lot of people realize - and the process to get to a good one takes a great deal of thought and effort.

[alexanderfrese]

Thanxalot…

I wish more clients would show some more appreciation, too.