Question about the Taig mini-lathe

[LatakiaLover]

I started thinking about getting one to keep around for the odd spacer, sleeve, or whatever, and in researching them here on the KurtBoard see that some guys use them for stems.

How? The spindle bore is a third of an inch. Whether rod stock or molded, nothing is gonna fit.

Signed,

Confused in North Dakota

[JHowell]

You just hold one end of the stock in a 3-jaw. Not ideal, but that's what I did with my little Atlas. The best way to handle it is to face one end and take a cut so you have a solid cylinder to work with. Then swap ends, and, as much as possible, do the rest of the stem in one setup. Holding a piece of any length like that in a 3-jaw it's going to be difficult to repeat the setup. but if you do it all at once that doesn't matter.

[LatakiaLover]

Jack,

Meaning, make what you need to between the chuck and headstock---like a table leg, or whatever---and then cut off the unused material at each end?

[JHowell]

No, you don't cut anything off. You just hold the stock in the 3-jaw and cut the exposed bit. This IS a serious limitation, because these little lathes don't have much of a chuck, and the free rod, unless you support it in a steady rest or with a live center, has a lot of mechanical advantage over the jaws. But it can be done. When I used my Atlas every once in awhile something would grab and the rod would shift in the chuck and everything would go pear-shaped. Now I use 5C collets which I absolutely adore, but here's what I would do if I had to go back.

1. Chuck stock. Do best to get in in square.
2. Face with light cut.
3. Center drill, run in live center.
4. Take fine cut on last 1" of OD to establish cylinder (rubber rod isn't all that round)
5. Reverse stock in chuck, face and center drill.
6. Drill air hole. If using delrin, drill for tenon.
7. Support with live center, perform whatever other turning operations are desired -- turn tenon if you're turning a tenon, rough out shape if you're turning a flare, turn down to rough stem diameter, whatever.
8. Fine turning can be done holding stem by the tenon, though this works better with Delrin. Heavy cuts will snap the stem off, but holding by the tenon keeps everything indexed to the tenon, and, by extension, to the mortise.
9. Shape remainer of stem off lathe.

Other sequences would work, of course. It works a whole lot better, as you note, if the stock will pass into the chuck, and into the spindle as well, because you don't have to have the same unsupported length as if you can only grip an inch or thereabouts. I particularly like collets because of their accuracy. I can do several stems in a batch, doing one operation at a time, and not have to worry about losing center when I remove a stem between steps. I think it's better in the long run to buy a big enough lathe to begin with, though I understand that many makers have space limitations. The better the lathe the easier the job, but if you have a good chuck or can run 5C collets it's hard to find a lathe that is too worn out to make pipes and stems. I dunno what a Taig costs these days, but I just bought a South Bend 9" Model C in great shape for $350, and I see 10" Logans for for under $300 pretty regularly.

This may be off topic a bit, but I think Logans are potentially the perfect old lathe for the impecunious pipemaker. They were always cheaper than South Bends and have their limitations for serious metal work, but they are less expensive now than South Bends and their limitations pose no impediment for working wood, rubber, and plastic. Parts are plentiful on Ebay and also cheaper than SB parts, and are highly interchangeable, since 10", 11", and 12" Logans all used the same bed. If you get an 11" Logan you have a pretty serious spindle with very decent (and easily replaceable) bearings that will take a 5C collet. A 10" Logan will only take a 3C collet, but will pass 1 3/8" through the headstock.

Of course, there are many other lathes that will work just fine, and a machinist will tell you, rightly, that a Logan is sort of a Model T compared to any number of more modern and industrial machines. But they're cheap, easy to disassemble and transport, perfectly adequate for the pipemaker, and . . . well, I'm running on.

[LatakiaLover]

Running on, nuthin'! That was truly comprehensive. Thanks VERY much!

It sounds like that machine---where pipes are concerned, anyway---is better suited for hobbiests for whom time doesn't matter much, where the pleasure is in the doing. I have to pay attention to bottlenecks and be fairly efficient, though, or ze groceries no get bought. (In fact, it was to avoid removing the tenon cutter and messing with the table on a drill press to do the occasional odd task that got me thinking in the first place. Trying to save time.)

Thanks again, Jack.

[JHowell]

It occurred to me later that your original question involved molded stems, which, you're right, can't be chucked at the tapered end, it has to be chucked at the tenon end and you can't do that if the stem won't pass into the spindle.

As far as time is concerned, there may be no bigger bottleneck than a lathe restoration, but you can avoid that if you know what to look for and what you need. Lots of lathes that have limited use for a machinist are fully useful for pipemaking. My first "real" lathe was (still have it) a very old Hardinge second operation lathe, which has no leadscrew, meaning no power feeds or screw cutting capability. But it ran great and used 5C collets.

http://public.jwh.fastmail.fm/images/Hardinge.jpg

That lathe is a huge timesaver, I haven't done a thing except use it and oil it. My Logan, on the other hand,

http://public.jwh.fastmail.fm/images/logan3.jpg

cost me almost a whole winter of pipemaking. : )

Look out, you get one old lathe, the others smell it on you and follow you home.

[RadDavis]

Jack, I suspect that you are not a pipemaker at all. You are a machinery junkie.

Rad

[KurtHuhn]

http://public.jwh.fastmail.fm/images/Hardinge.jpg

http://public.jwh.fastmail.fm/images/logan3.jpg

Good lord, those are beautiful. Now *I* want one!

[JHowell]

Rad, thanks for blowing my cover. Occasionally my wife wonders out loud if I really need FIVE lathes for making pipes. My position is, I don't have to need them, I just have to USE them.

[LatakiaLover]

Jack, I suspect that you are not a pipemaker at all. You are a machinery junkie.

Don'y laugh. A passion for fine machinery runs deep. But to USE it, SOME application must be chosen. A friend of mine became a large diesel engine specialist not because he enjoys flying to mines in the Australian outback, or freezing half to death in the arctic, but just to be near and work with them. (He loves locomotives, too.)

[Frank]

Jack, if other people cared for their machines the way you do, there wouldn't be much restoration needed. Those are the cleanest "in use" machines I've ever seen. You definately are a "lathe lover".

[hazmat]

You can chuck a pre-fab stem in the Taig, it's just a royal pain in the rear and makes more work in the sanding/filing department. You have to tightly chuck the tapered(bit) end into the headstock, which inevitably leaves marks in the stem, and use a live center. I don't like using my Taig on pre-fabs, though I do. I refer to this as 'self-imposed torture' and avoid it at all costs. I don't have many problems with getting everything set up properly when I'm hand-cutting a stem, though I did when I started. As Jack mentioned, it helps to do all the work in one sitting, but I've found it not totally necessary, just mostly necessary.

Someone does sell a spiffy little tool specifically for working on pre-fab stems, but I can't remember whose website it is. I'll have to do some lookin around and see if I can find it. Looks like a handy tool. I'm pretty sure there's a couple of guys here who use it.

[Tyler]

To second Hazmat, you CAN chuck preformed stems in a Taig. To do so it is easiest if you use a 4-jaw chuck. I have used a self-centering 4-jaw, and I protect the stem but using masking tape on the stem right behind the button built up to the thickness of the button. It is far from ideal, but workable.

As I recall, LL, you are doing repairs right? Using the Taig for repairs would indeed be an inefficient tool. When making a new pipe, it doesn't really matter much if you are chucked perfectly squarely if you have enough material to compensate. You can just turn the material down until it is rounded to the axis chucked to. Then you can square the face, and you will have flush fit to the stummel. Then you have to shape the stem to match the new axis, which isn't hard with a new pipe on which you can sand the shank without concern. That could be a pain in the behind on a repair though.

Tyler

P.S. I just read my post I'm I'm not ure anyone will understand it. Sorry, but I don't have to time to figure out how to better explain. I'm not a good enough writer.

[LatakiaLover]

...LL, you are doing repairs right? Using the Taig for repairs would indeed be an inefficient tool.

I hear ya, Tyler! Somehow this thread morphed from me looking for a "spacer & liner maker" into something I want to make bits with.

Not so. For repair work, not even a full size lathe is hassle-free enough for high throughput. That's best accomplished with something like this:



Drop 'em in, tighten the knob, pull the lever, loosen the knob. Stem falls through the bed into your hand.

What I was looking for is either a small drill press or lathe strictly for offline work, such as making a tenon/stem "gap filler" button for an opened pipe's airway. (What Ronnie B. calls blueprinting.)

(I just re-read the thread starter. Here's what happened. I mentioned that while looking at a Taig, I noticed how small the spindle hole was, and wondered out loud how anyone DID make stems with such a thing. Then someone explained, and follow-up posters continued to run with the ball.)

[JHowell]

I think it's a good explanation, Tyler. It's hard to chuck a long piece of anything by one end and have it be square. A center in the tailstock helps, if only for setup when you tighten the chuck, but what helps more is to reduce the amount of stock sticking out of the chuck (bigger chuck/spindle bore), which reduces the leverage the tool can exert to deflect the rod in the chuck. And once you create your true axis by holding the work off-axis you're stuck completing all turning operations that need to be coaxial with the tenon that setup -- you can get close, but you'll never be able to chuck it up precisely the same way a second time. All a matter of degree, almost anything can be made to work, and I had exactly the same issues with my 6" Atlas.

To second Hazmat, you CAN chuck preformed stems in a Taig. To do so it is easiest if you use a 4-jaw chuck. I have used a self-centering 4-jaw, and I protect the stem but using masking tape on the stem right behind the button built up to the thickness of the button. It is far from ideal, but workable.

As I recall, LL, you are doing repairs right? Using the Taig for repairs would indeed be an inefficient tool. When making a new pipe, it doesn't really matter much if you are chucked perfectly squarely if you have enough material to compensate. You can just turn the material down until it is rounded to the axis chucked to. Then you can square the face, and you will have flush fit to the stummel. Then you have to shape the stem to match the new axis, which isn't hard with a new pipe on which you can sand the shank without concern. That could be a pain in the behind on a repair though.

Tyler

P.S. I just read my post I'm I'm not ure anyone will understand it. Sorry, but I don't have to time to figure out how to better explain. I'm not a good enough writer.

[sethile]

As far as time is concerned, there may be no bigger bottleneck than a lathe restoration, but you can avoid that if you know what to look for and what you need. Lots of lathes that have limited use for a machinist are fully useful for pipemaking. My first "real" lathe was (still have it) a very old Hardinge second operation lathe, which has no leadscrew, meaning no power feeds or screw cutting capability. But it ran great and used 5C collets.

http://public.jwh.fastmail.fm/images/Hardinge.jpg

That lathe is a huge timesaver, I haven't done a thing except use it and oil it. My Logan, on the other hand,

http://public.jwh.fastmail.fm/images/logan3.jpg

cost me almost a whole winter of pipemaking. : )

Look out, you get one old lathe, the others smell it on you and follow you home.

Wow, Jack! Those are beautiful lathes.... I've got bad lathe envy now! Can I use your picture of the Logan for Pipedia? I don't suppose you documented it's restoration, did you? I'd love to show a nicely restored beauty like that as an example in the metal lathe article. Maybe at least a before and after picture....

I keep looking to pick up an older lathe. My problem is getting them here. I'm just too far away from where they tend to show up. I keep hoping one will turn up close enough for me to afford to get it here.

Seeing your pics reminds me--my great uncle was a machinist for Ford (retired in the early '70s). I know he had a nice old lathe in his home shop. It went to my uncle when he died, and now he's gone too. I've got to find out if that thing is still kicking around some place. It would be so great to have my Great Uncles old lathe and do the Howell treatment on it! I wonder what it was... Problem is if it's still kicking around it's 2000 miles away, but for that kind of deal it would be worth the freight!

My tricked out Chinese 9x20 and 7x12 lathes work great for pipe making, but they're not something one falls in love like these great old machines! For now I'm likely better off without the distraction.

[JHowell]

Hi, Scott,

You're certainly welcome to use the picture. I wish I had taken pictures before, that would make it much more impressive. It was a rusty pile of parts -- if you look at the rustiest, junkiest old Logan on ebay, mine was probably worse than that.

I once had the same reservation about distance in buying lathes, but I've discovered that I can do 1000 miles on a day off if there's a lathe involved, which puts almost any machine in the eastern US within reach, unfortunately. I picked up one lathe in Philly, one in Baltimore, picked up a shaper for a friend just south of Detroit, all with my Taurus station wagon and a $20 UHaul motorcycle trailer. If you are willing to take them apart (and you'll have to take them apart eventually) these lathes all are movable by one man who can lift a bit -- heaviest part disassembled is probably 120lbs.

If you really want some restoration porn, look here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45888076@N00/?saved=1

Dennis is my guru who guided me through the Logan restoration, and if you really want to see some clean in-use machines, and I mean production use, you'd have to see his machine shop, which makes titanium hip replacements, electron microscope parts, high-vacuum chambers . . . when you get into machine tools, it's a whole different world. Those of you who know lathes will see that the Logan has a South Bend 10K 200-increment cross slide dial -- that's a nice little trick feature, courtesy of Dennis. Dennis has one TWS 14-inch lathe that has some ridiculous number of hours on the spindle, 30,000 maybe, still certified to hold a tenth for government stuff.

One thing Dennis impressed on me was the importance of keeping abrasive dust off the ways -- nothing destroys a lathe's ways faster. In fact in his business there is a row of Hardinge HVLH lathes (at least $25,000 each) with a sign: "Use of sandpaper, Scotchbrite, or any other abrasive on a Hardinge lathe is cause for immediate dismissal."

Dennis said he wasn't kidding but only had to do it once, helped the guy move his toolbox himself. Ironically, my Hardinge is the only machine I use sandpaper on, but that's because I can remove the cross slide and tailstock in a few seconds and put a sheet of plastic over the bed and no harm is done.

And Scott, if your great uncle was a machinist there's every chance that that lathe needs no restoration. The paint may be funky, but old-school machinists are often fastidious in their care of machines, particularly ones they've bought with their own money. If you can, it's a great experience to make friends with an old machinist. They are often living treasures of setup tricks and geometry, and eager to pass on their knowledge. They are, as a class, ecstatic to see a younger person (you don't have to be young, just youngER) restoring one of these old machines and carrying on the art of manual machining, and that machine is a ticket to the sort of help that can't be bought.

[Tyler]

For whatever reason, the siren's call of tool making and restoration is out of the range of my ears. However, I sure do admire the work of those that do it. I gotta say Jack, your two lathes are the first two I've ever seen that I felt sad would actually be covered in dust and bits of material. Wow. Nice job.

Tyler

[hazmat]

Hey, LatakiaLover... the vise that you posted the pic of early in this thread... is it similar to the vises used for drilling out pen blanks? I was looking through a Woodturner's Catalog catalog(redundancy is my friend) and the ones they offer sure look alike.