Pricing your pipes
Two thoughts on Trever's post. Yes, self-employment taxes are a drag. But you don't pay that on the retail price, you pay after expenses, which alters the math somewhat since it's such a big bite.
As for the price competition between part- and full-timers, price isn't the only parameter. A full-time professional can expect to charge for an established reputation, perhaps (in some cases) expected resale value, and for a product that is judged by the buyer to be more satisfactory than a product made by one less experienced and established. Part-timers *can't* charge the customer for their own slowness, they have to establish a reputation one way or another. No doubt, it's a tough row to hoe going full-time, and very few will try.
As for the price competition between part- and full-timers, price isn't the only parameter. A full-time professional can expect to charge for an established reputation, perhaps (in some cases) expected resale value, and for a product that is judged by the buyer to be more satisfactory than a product made by one less experienced and established. Part-timers *can't* charge the customer for their own slowness, they have to establish a reputation one way or another. No doubt, it's a tough row to hoe going full-time, and very few will try.
Hi,
An interesting topic and it brings to mind two points. Everything below is simply my humble opinion and solely based on my point of view.
First, from my experience with selling art in general and pipes now more specifically, I'd say that the first thing to realize is that there is not just one market for selling pipes. When I say "markets" here what I really mean is buyers. There are many levels and they often overlap.
Just for the sake of simplicity we can break it down into three major parts:
• Buyers of Basket and Cheap Factory pipes and/or estate pipes.
This group will probably not buy pipes from the other groups and may not even be aware of their existence. This group is probably the largest of pipe buyers. Their general price range is $0.00 - $150.00 with most purchases below $100.
• Buyers of Nicer Factory and Mid-Grade Artisan/Handmade pipes and/or estate pipes.
Buyers from this group will probably buy or at least consider buying from anywhere in the spectrum either in new or estate markets. Some of these regular buyers may move into more regular High Grade purchases. These prices seem to range from around $200.00 - $550.00. Many Castellos and Dunhill's are in this range for example. So those of us pricing in this range are competing directly -price wise- with these companies.
• Buyers of High Grade -factory or artisan- pipes and/or estate pipes.
This group will probably buy only from middle to high grade pipes with the random lower grade thrown in because of special interest or circumstance. Probably ranging from $475.00 on up
These are just general terms of course. To really break it down, we would have more and finer categories.
Each group buys according to what is important and valuable to them. Handmade pipe-makers like us need to see where our work fits with those needs. Few of us would want to compete in the Basket and Cheap Factory pipes market. The margins are way too low and tight. You need... I don't know what... 75 - 150 pipes a day to be in this market? Who wants to compete with Missouri Meerschaum in terms of quantity and reputation, just for starters. It's just out of the question. Buyers in this market care about price and smoking. Probably in that order. Buyers in this market are the ones who wonder who you think you are "Mr. Artisan Pipe Engineer", when you want more than $100.00 for 3 days work and they probably don't really understand why you are even making a handmade pipe when machine made is so much easier and "smokes just as good". Pipes and tobaccos may be just a means to an end rather than a hobby for them. Once again it's my guess that this is by far the majority. Probably like 75 - 85 percent of regular pipe-smokers.
As a solo pipe-maker you really can't get realistic regarding any kind of sustainable business (part or full time) until you enter the Mid-Grade as I see it. Of course then you are competing for a client who has a little more of a collector mentality rather than just a smoker who only cares about price. They are interested in the various nuances of the hobby and enjoy sharing same with other collectors. Some people call them passionate collectors, others call them elitists. This is a much narrower market and beginners and established makers are all over the place both in terms of price and quality.
High Grades are strictly for buyers who want something more than "a pipe". They want art. They want some creativity, beauty, a personal relationship with the maker -so they will go to shows to meet them. These buyers are acknowledging that beauty and creativity takes time and energy and are willing to pay for the work of an artist. They are interested in the various nuances of the hobby and enjoy sharing same with other collectors. Some people call them passionate collectors, others call them elitists.
Usually the level of technical and creative proficiency is very high at this level and collectors can really get picky (and rightly so at those prices) with every possible detail. Some of those details are even out of the makers hands as they relate to uncontrollable elements like grain and small flaws in the wood. Reputation plays a big part in this market.
Second, in one of the previous threads about this I remember Rad Davis saying something to the effect: If you want to sell a pipe for $100, make a $200. pipe. If you want to sell a pipe for $300. make a $500. pipe. I always remembered that and think about it sometimes as I grade and price pipes.
One of my early sales was a nice pipe that I graded at around $500. I did not tell anyone that, it was just in my head that's about where I want that grade to eventually be. I sold the pipe to a friend for $300.
About a year or so later my friend told me he was smoking the pipe in a hunting club or something like that and another pipe guy who owned high grade danish and italian pipes wanted to see the pipe. He looked it over and ended up asking to buy it. He kept raising the price until my friend's brother intervened with, "You don't understand. If he's not interested in selling it, he is not going to sell it." The last offer was at $600.
Does that story mean that I undersold my pipe? I don't think so. I have Zero regrets regarding the sale price. I had read Rad's advice and followed it as I understood it. I think I priced the pipe just right for where I am at right now.
That brings up one more point; everyone's prices change. For various reasons if you stick around long enough, you can and probably should raise your prices. So don't feel too locked into whatever price range you start off at.
An interesting topic and it brings to mind two points. Everything below is simply my humble opinion and solely based on my point of view.
First, from my experience with selling art in general and pipes now more specifically, I'd say that the first thing to realize is that there is not just one market for selling pipes. When I say "markets" here what I really mean is buyers. There are many levels and they often overlap.
Just for the sake of simplicity we can break it down into three major parts:
• Buyers of Basket and Cheap Factory pipes and/or estate pipes.
This group will probably not buy pipes from the other groups and may not even be aware of their existence. This group is probably the largest of pipe buyers. Their general price range is $0.00 - $150.00 with most purchases below $100.
• Buyers of Nicer Factory and Mid-Grade Artisan/Handmade pipes and/or estate pipes.
Buyers from this group will probably buy or at least consider buying from anywhere in the spectrum either in new or estate markets. Some of these regular buyers may move into more regular High Grade purchases. These prices seem to range from around $200.00 - $550.00. Many Castellos and Dunhill's are in this range for example. So those of us pricing in this range are competing directly -price wise- with these companies.
• Buyers of High Grade -factory or artisan- pipes and/or estate pipes.
This group will probably buy only from middle to high grade pipes with the random lower grade thrown in because of special interest or circumstance. Probably ranging from $475.00 on up
These are just general terms of course. To really break it down, we would have more and finer categories.
Each group buys according to what is important and valuable to them. Handmade pipe-makers like us need to see where our work fits with those needs. Few of us would want to compete in the Basket and Cheap Factory pipes market. The margins are way too low and tight. You need... I don't know what... 75 - 150 pipes a day to be in this market? Who wants to compete with Missouri Meerschaum in terms of quantity and reputation, just for starters. It's just out of the question. Buyers in this market care about price and smoking. Probably in that order. Buyers in this market are the ones who wonder who you think you are "Mr. Artisan Pipe Engineer", when you want more than $100.00 for 3 days work and they probably don't really understand why you are even making a handmade pipe when machine made is so much easier and "smokes just as good". Pipes and tobaccos may be just a means to an end rather than a hobby for them. Once again it's my guess that this is by far the majority. Probably like 75 - 85 percent of regular pipe-smokers.
As a solo pipe-maker you really can't get realistic regarding any kind of sustainable business (part or full time) until you enter the Mid-Grade as I see it. Of course then you are competing for a client who has a little more of a collector mentality rather than just a smoker who only cares about price. They are interested in the various nuances of the hobby and enjoy sharing same with other collectors. Some people call them passionate collectors, others call them elitists. This is a much narrower market and beginners and established makers are all over the place both in terms of price and quality.
High Grades are strictly for buyers who want something more than "a pipe". They want art. They want some creativity, beauty, a personal relationship with the maker -so they will go to shows to meet them. These buyers are acknowledging that beauty and creativity takes time and energy and are willing to pay for the work of an artist. They are interested in the various nuances of the hobby and enjoy sharing same with other collectors. Some people call them passionate collectors, others call them elitists.
Usually the level of technical and creative proficiency is very high at this level and collectors can really get picky (and rightly so at those prices) with every possible detail. Some of those details are even out of the makers hands as they relate to uncontrollable elements like grain and small flaws in the wood. Reputation plays a big part in this market.
Second, in one of the previous threads about this I remember Rad Davis saying something to the effect: If you want to sell a pipe for $100, make a $200. pipe. If you want to sell a pipe for $300. make a $500. pipe. I always remembered that and think about it sometimes as I grade and price pipes.
One of my early sales was a nice pipe that I graded at around $500. I did not tell anyone that, it was just in my head that's about where I want that grade to eventually be. I sold the pipe to a friend for $300.
About a year or so later my friend told me he was smoking the pipe in a hunting club or something like that and another pipe guy who owned high grade danish and italian pipes wanted to see the pipe. He looked it over and ended up asking to buy it. He kept raising the price until my friend's brother intervened with, "You don't understand. If he's not interested in selling it, he is not going to sell it." The last offer was at $600.
Does that story mean that I undersold my pipe? I don't think so. I have Zero regrets regarding the sale price. I had read Rad's advice and followed it as I understood it. I think I priced the pipe just right for where I am at right now.
That brings up one more point; everyone's prices change. For various reasons if you stick around long enough, you can and probably should raise your prices. So don't feel too locked into whatever price range you start off at.
www.TotemStar.com - Some of my pipe related art
This is a great thread, and timely. I've heard and read a lot on pricing lately.
Some pricing discussions seem to border on envy. But there is a legitimate concern over the general health of the market and how pricing might effect it.
Even with the huge difference in pricing, I rarely see something sell for way under, or way over market, except for my own pipes. Sound familiar? Tyler writes, "FWIW, generally new makers over value their work." I'm guessing we all have the potential to get proud of a pipe.
I had an interesting time at the St. Louis show in this regard. It's a small show, but the pricing runs the gamut. I sold a couple of my more expensive pipes at prices I think were under market, but even with that I was happy--they went to people that seem to really appreciate them. I also like paying for these trips, and still have something to show my long suffering wife when I get back. Well, late in the show I walked over and looked at Tonni Nielsen's pipes. His pricing seems low for the quality, reputation, and background, but so many amazing pipes were still sitting on his table! It seems he's selling more or less what he can make, and making a living at it, so his pricing can't be that far out of line, but after seeing his pipes and pricing I'm happy I'm not having to pay people to take mine!
Tonni seems to have hit a good fit in terms of market position, and can somehow make great looking pipes at a what looks to me like bargain prices, much like our own Rad Davis has done.
Tyler's outline from the pipe maker's perspective is excellent, and Souljer brings up some interesting points about the types of buyers. I'm wondering if there are any actual demographics we can work from. How many pipe smokers are there, anyway? With that maybe we can speculate as to how many buyers might be at the given price points.
It's staggering to look at this from a business perspective. It reminds me of what I tell young musicians looking at a carrier in music. If you can do anything else to make a living, you should do it, and just play music for fun. But then they take gigs for under market, and drive the market down, etc... In a perfect world we would all be working at what we love to do, and not just working to live. Oh well....
Some pricing discussions seem to border on envy. But there is a legitimate concern over the general health of the market and how pricing might effect it.
Even with the huge difference in pricing, I rarely see something sell for way under, or way over market, except for my own pipes. Sound familiar? Tyler writes, "FWIW, generally new makers over value their work." I'm guessing we all have the potential to get proud of a pipe.
I had an interesting time at the St. Louis show in this regard. It's a small show, but the pricing runs the gamut. I sold a couple of my more expensive pipes at prices I think were under market, but even with that I was happy--they went to people that seem to really appreciate them. I also like paying for these trips, and still have something to show my long suffering wife when I get back. Well, late in the show I walked over and looked at Tonni Nielsen's pipes. His pricing seems low for the quality, reputation, and background, but so many amazing pipes were still sitting on his table! It seems he's selling more or less what he can make, and making a living at it, so his pricing can't be that far out of line, but after seeing his pipes and pricing I'm happy I'm not having to pay people to take mine!
Tonni seems to have hit a good fit in terms of market position, and can somehow make great looking pipes at a what looks to me like bargain prices, much like our own Rad Davis has done.
Tyler's outline from the pipe maker's perspective is excellent, and Souljer brings up some interesting points about the types of buyers. I'm wondering if there are any actual demographics we can work from. How many pipe smokers are there, anyway? With that maybe we can speculate as to how many buyers might be at the given price points.
It's staggering to look at this from a business perspective. It reminds me of what I tell young musicians looking at a carrier in music. If you can do anything else to make a living, you should do it, and just play music for fun. But then they take gigs for under market, and drive the market down, etc... In a perfect world we would all be working at what we love to do, and not just working to live. Oh well....
Scott E. Thile
Collector, smoker, and aspiring pipemaker.
http://sethilepipes.com
Sysop: http://pipedia.org
---------------------
Collector, smoker, and aspiring pipemaker.
http://sethilepipes.com
Sysop: http://pipedia.org
---------------------
Hi,
Just because you can drill and carve, etc. does not make you an experienced and educated artist or designer. Remember the expression, "The more I learn the less I know"? These new carvers are not even there yet. It's not a lack of respect of the older, experienced work, or being overly prideful, it's a total lack of awareness; it just goes right over their head. Next thing you know, they price their beginning work just as high. I bet a lot of these types were once buyers who could not understand why it took you more than 20 minutes to make a finished pipe. Now they don't understand why it takes themselves more than 20 minutes.
I also feel this is, at least in part, some of the reason some price their pipes well below market value. If you are selling work for $75.00 that cost you a day to make and $45.00 in supplies, there is something seriously wrong.
The whole point of that was that pricing is an arrow, a path but to what end? We need to be aware of where we can go before we choose a path. So I was just trying to suggest that a direction was also important when deciding how to price.
I agree with Tyler's statement, but I don't think it's always caused by pride. I honestly think a lot of newer craftsmen/artists are really just ignorant and bordering on a child-like innocence with regard to what and why certain work is valuable or good. They can see and even hold good work and they will not realize why it's good or what effort was put into it. A lot of buyers are also in this group. They are the ones who can't seem to understand why it takes you more than 20 minutes to make a finished pipe. What's wrong with you?sethile wrote: Tyler writes, "FWIW, generally new makers over value their work." I'm guessing we all have the potential to get proud of a pipe.
Just because you can drill and carve, etc. does not make you an experienced and educated artist or designer. Remember the expression, "The more I learn the less I know"? These new carvers are not even there yet. It's not a lack of respect of the older, experienced work, or being overly prideful, it's a total lack of awareness; it just goes right over their head. Next thing you know, they price their beginning work just as high. I bet a lot of these types were once buyers who could not understand why it took you more than 20 minutes to make a finished pipe. Now they don't understand why it takes themselves more than 20 minutes.
I also feel this is, at least in part, some of the reason some price their pipes well below market value. If you are selling work for $75.00 that cost you a day to make and $45.00 in supplies, there is something seriously wrong.
I don't think I was very clear now that I re-read my post. That was written over the course of a few hours and at two different times. I was at a coffee shop but my battery was dying so I closed down and finished up later at home.sethile wrote:Tyler's outline from the pipe maker's perspective is excellent, and Souljer brings up some interesting points about the types of buyers. I'm wondering if there are any actual demographics we can work from. How many pipe smokers are there, anyway? With that maybe we can speculate as to how many buyers might be at the given price points.
It's staggering to look at this from a business perspective. It reminds me of what I tell young musicians looking at a carrier in music. If you can do anything else to make a living, you should do it, and just play music for fun. But then they take gigs for under market, and drive the market down, etc... In a perfect world we would all be working at what we love to do, and not just working to live. Oh well....
The whole point of that was that pricing is an arrow, a path but to what end? We need to be aware of where we can go before we choose a path. So I was just trying to suggest that a direction was also important when deciding how to price.
www.TotemStar.com - Some of my pipe related art
-
smokepiper
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
- Location: Sweden
- Contact:
To be honest i really don´t think any craftsmen can charge per hour during the first years in the trade, untill the quality of crafmanship is recognized. At least here in Sweden the market is very hard for all craftsmen even the most experienced have problems getting their hours of sweat and hard work pay out. The point of pipemaking is to make the best smokers and something beautiful at the same time, that takes a lot of work and hours to make the absolute best of the piece of briar. I don´t have any high hopes for making me $ for my making my main goal is to give the buyers a great smoker. My payment is the mails of satisfyed customers praising my work, that can´t be measured in $.
I suppose it's the same here in the states, Ronny. I'm a little burned out putting in over 10 hours on a pipe that gets some praise, then selling it for $50 on Ebay!
It's not that I want a lot of money for the hours. The hours don't really matter that much since I can't keep track of them anyway. It's the prospect of it taking a non-artist such as myself years to get to the level of expertise where I can sell myself as a measly "mid-grade level" pipe maker. Doesn't seem worth it.
I suppose when you calculate the "heart" factor, it all evens out. Most of us newbies are fortunate enough to have this website and sources of cheap briar (plug for Michael Parks) to practice on, giving us valuable advice and experience making the silly things.
As an aside, does anyone think that Ebay, such as it is, gives any accurate feedback on the worth/saleability of one's pipes? I'm a little confused as to what to make of my experience!
--Michael
It's not that I want a lot of money for the hours. The hours don't really matter that much since I can't keep track of them anyway. It's the prospect of it taking a non-artist such as myself years to get to the level of expertise where I can sell myself as a measly "mid-grade level" pipe maker. Doesn't seem worth it.
I suppose when you calculate the "heart" factor, it all evens out. Most of us newbies are fortunate enough to have this website and sources of cheap briar (plug for Michael Parks) to practice on, giving us valuable advice and experience making the silly things.
As an aside, does anyone think that Ebay, such as it is, gives any accurate feedback on the worth/saleability of one's pipes? I'm a little confused as to what to make of my experience!
--Michael
Hard to say. I have yet to try the Ebay approach, and if I do, it will more than likely be through an established seller (when my pipes are good enough). They usually already have an established client base that come back every week to see what's new. Good way to get better exposure - I think.flix wrote: As an aside, does anyone think that Ebay, such as it is, gives any accurate feedback on the worth/saleability of one's pipes? I'm a little confused as to what to make of my experience!
I just had a hunch that it wouldn't have been a great idea trying to list them myself.
Neill Roan (ZuluCollector) has a thread started on the Smokers Forum that is looking at Ebay as it relates to the value of the artisan's work.
I think ebay is a pretty poor way to sell new pipes, except possibly to break in. The best way to break in, though, is to get pipes in the hands of experienced, knowledgeable smokers. You may have to give some away. And you have to get good advice. Don't take all the attaboys on SF or whatever too much to heart, the actual market is very critical. Ideally, you'll establish some sort of reputation before your pipes hit ebay as estates. I don't watch ebay, but I would expect new pipes by unknown makers to go pretty cheaply regardless of how nice they seem. Be patient. I made pipes for four years before I sold one, and went into selling with the idea that it could take five years to get to establish any sort of reputation. I still have a year to work on it.
-
KurtHuhn
- Site Admin
- Posts: 5326
- Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
- Location: United States/Rhode Island
Ebay is a horrible place to sell anything high-grade or mid-grade (IMO). The folks that are buying there are looking for bargains and steals. It's more suited to inexpensive things, onsey-twosey oddities, and hard to find rarities.flix wrote:As an aside, does anyone think that Ebay, such as it is, gives any accurate feedback on the worth/saleability of one's pipes? I'm a little confused as to what to make of my experience!
Ebay isn't a great place for me to sell pipes or pens, but it can be a good place to sell stuff I simply don't want anymore. It can also be a decent place to sell stuff that I don't have a lot of time or money in, as long as I offer at the right price.
That said, you can get lucky once in a while. And the right seller will develop a following of repeat customers, and actually make a tidy profit.
I think your reputation is well established, Jack. You're way ahead of schedule!JHowell wrote: I made pipes for four years before I sold one, and went into selling with the idea that it could take five years to get to establish any sort of reputation. I still have a year to work on it.
Jack Howell? Isn't he that guy that uses walrus peckers for shank extensions?
Rad
-
Spence Pipes
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:39 am
- Location: Nashville, Tn
- Contact:
Re:
I agree with Kurt about Ebay. I used to sell on ebay, until their recent changes. I tried to put a match vesta (safe) on there last week. So many new rules and B.S. made my blood pressure go up. But that said, I have gotten a bunch of awsome pipe's at a great deal. Last year, I bought Peterson's, Nording's, Jobey and about 26 other low end pipe bowl's ( for practice) and did not pay over $100.00 for all of them. But as Kurt said, the high end stuff was way over priced, or was worth it but out of my wallet range.
Selling a new mid-grade or high grade pipe on a 7 or 10 day ebay auction doesn't give you a wide enough "window". If you did want to take advantage of the ebay market, you'd be better off having an ebay "store" and selling the pipes at a price you fix. This would give you a much longer "window". It also allows you to pull the item off ebay if you happen to sell it privately or via your own website.
Regards,
Frank.
------------------
Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
Frank.
------------------
Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
-
smokepiper
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
- Location: Sweden
- Contact:
I would never try to sell my work on ebay, i have always been trying to find the buyer among collectors or smokers who realize the true value of hand made pipes. Takes time but after a while the word get out and things getting easier. I have been fortunate to have Frenchy as PR too, great guy with worldwide contacts. Luck and patience is the keyfigure to keep the making going, after all materials have to be payed for the amount of working hours have to come in second hand.
I currently sell most of of my pipes through Coopersark on eBay. Im doing pretty well. Ive made 100+/- pipes
Most of my pipes sell between $150-$300 but I have had some go as high as $350 and as low as $85.
As a Pipemaker who is still getting established it has gotten me alot of recognition from Tobaco shops in a few different states as well as selling pipes in Italy and Isreal.
Would I prefer to sell exclusively on my website, absolutely. but it's more money to stick back in to my pipes.
I had 8 of my pipes in Chicago for the show and I tried to bump the price up a little bit, and everything I sent came back. So I guess Im not ready for the mid - high grade league yet.
I guess my point is I know where I sit in the grand scheme of things.
Most of my pipes sell between $150-$300 but I have had some go as high as $350 and as low as $85.
As a Pipemaker who is still getting established it has gotten me alot of recognition from Tobaco shops in a few different states as well as selling pipes in Italy and Isreal.
Would I prefer to sell exclusively on my website, absolutely. but it's more money to stick back in to my pipes.
I had 8 of my pipes in Chicago for the show and I tried to bump the price up a little bit, and everything I sent came back. So I guess Im not ready for the mid - high grade league yet.
I guess my point is I know where I sit in the grand scheme of things.
Re: Pricing your pipes
I found this looking for posts on 'grading' pipes. Haven't found a lot of what I'm looking for, but I know this has been a recent subject and this group of posts is quite concise and very informative. Anyone looking for 'how much should I charge for my pipe?' should give this thread a read.