staining question

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:19 pm

All the talk in my other post about finishing (which is TOO BIG to post a new question on) is about water based and alcohol based stains. Did I miss something about oil based stains? Are they OK to use or do they damage the wood somehow?

-----------------------------------------
Ben
http://www.scofield.cc/pipes (under construction)

marks · Post by **marks** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:20 pm

I don't know the real answer to your question, but I will take a stab at it. I believe there are two reasons that oil based stains are not generally used to color briar used for smoking pipes.

One
There may be a chance for the oil based stains to seal the pores of the briar. Even though the oil based stains are relatively thin, I am not sure if the oil evaporates like the alcohol and water do in the other varieties of stains. This leads me to reason number

Two
An oil based stain may impart a flavor to the briar. Water and alcohol based stains do not as a general rule, as the water and alcohol evaporate and leave the pigment.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but from all I have heard, water and alcohol stains are the way to go with pipes.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:09 pm

Oil based stains will impart a flavor, and they're poison in most cases.

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:14 am

what's the poison? what's the cases?

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:45 pm

By that I mean that a lot of oil-based stains contain thinning agents and stuff that are poison if inhaled. I can't recall off the top of my head the what the actual chemical nastiness is though.

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:56 pm

The toxic elements would most likely be in the pigments being used. Many use ingredients such as magnesium, copper, and cadmium and barium etc. Or at least that is the case with artist paints. I would assume the same is true with household stains as well. But how truely toxic they would be on the outside of a pipe I am not sure.

Marks,

You are right, oil based stains seal the wood. They are essentialy a paint. The stores call them stains simply because they are transparent. There is a difference between a paint and a stain (or dye).

Paints have a vehicle such as latex or oil that is impregnated with a coloring agent or pigment. This vehicle never evaporates it simply hardens into a tough film that does not truely become part of the wood surface but sticks to it.

With a dye. The pigment is bonded with the vehicle (alcohol) only until it has evaporated. What is left is pigment that has actually become part of the wood surface. That is why these analine dyes dry so matte and opaque and you need to buff and wax them to make them shine. There is no vehicle such as an oil or plastic left to make them shiny.

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:38 am

OK this is off topic but this is a good time & place to ask it:

What happens when the wood breathes??

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:59 am

You know Ben, that has always been a question I have had as well. I hear more collectors talk about it than carvers.

My father had a Dr. Grabow that was finished with some type of laquer and it smoked terrible! I mean really bad. Hot, wet, finish started to peal off etc. I think it is experiences like that, that has made people so wary of doing anything that would seal the wood in any way. I would also imagine that not sealing the wood would allow the pipe to dry much more efficiently as the walls would still be porous on either side. Kinda like trying to pour oil from of a can with two openings compared to one.

In the end I am really not sure. I'm a paint guy not a wood man

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:04 am

John, you said in another post that you use leather dye's for your pipes. A leather worker's shop is the only local place I can get any dye's that I've heard about as of yet. If you don't mind my asking, are there certain colors that look differently when applied to wood? In other words can you give me any hints about what to get or not to get in regards to the colors cause they don't turn out the way one would think?

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:20 am

I can do better than hint

Here is where I get them: http://www.aleathersource.com/Dyes.htm

These are the colors I use:

USMC Black is a very nice black that is neither too red nor too blue.

Light Brown

Med. Brown

Dark Brown

Maroon

Buckskin

I have found that there is very little if any color shift with these. They do dry quite matte and opaque and that scared me at first. But they buff and shine to a nice finish. The nice thing about these is they are pre mixed and not a powder which guarantees consistency in the colors you are using. These things have a LOT of pigment. A little bit goes a very long way.

The pipe in my avatar is finished in Medium Brown.

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:56 pm

FYI, besides the other good reasons listed here, I found another reason NOT TO USE OIL BASED STAINS. They reject the carnuba wax. My first pipe was stained this way and after 2-3 months and VERY few smokes the carnuba's basicaly completely gone!

now I know... "And knowing is half the battle!"

jbacon · Post by **jbacon** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:41 pm

john

these leather dyes- are they an aniline dye
i have seen other pipe makers flame the stains to help them dry quicker
does this work w/ leather dyes. how do leather dyes compare like to the stains that pimo sells- are the same but just pre mixed

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:45 pm

I have not used the Pimo dyes but the Fieblings are, to my knowledge, an analine dye use for leather products. When you flame them all you are doing is burning away the alcohol so that they dry quicker.

Tim West is best known for doing this and I believe he uses the Feibling dyes. Or at least, the pics I have seen show him using an applicator exactly like those supplied with my Fieblings

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:51 pm

It is in the description above the price list

http://www.aleathersource.com/Dyes.htm

Permanent, alcohol-based leather dyes that dry uniformly. Colors can be mixed to create an unlimited spectrum of colors. Available in 4oz. and 32oz. bottles.

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:42 am

I would have to see it to really be able to tell. I could certainly tell what colors were used to mix the dye but without knowing the brand of stain they are using it would hard to tell you what exactly to use.

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:46 am

Is the color you are talking about something like this??