The Russian Logopipe??

For the things that don't fit neatly into the other categories.
alexanderfrese
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Bochum, Germany
Contact:

Post by alexanderfrese »

Steve, some more thoughts. I find this a very interesting discussion, for several reasons.
magruder wrote:Alex,

There are copyright laws in the US to prevent this sort of thing.
Also, the US Customs Service seizes and destroys millions of counterfiet items a year.
Yes, same thing here in Europe, though maybe not as restrictive as in the US.
While the Russian pipes are not counterfiet -passing as a Love or Rolando
pipe - the intention is to obtain the fruit of anothers' talent and labor
and exclude the original artist from the PROFITS derived from that talent and labor.
That's about the point I was trying to hook on to. They don't pretend to be something else. They do copy a design, or better: a look. The original intention is probably rather to maximize the copier's income than to minimize the fruits for the inventor. Although second point is included to some level in the process of copying a design. And to be serious: Would the buyer of the copied pipe have bought one of Love's models if the copy wasn't there? All the best to Love's business, don't get me wrong! But there is a difference between Love's work and the copied pipe and original Levis Jeans and the asian ripoffs on the other.
I believe that to copy exactly as possible, in a manner to captures the uniqueness of a certain pipe, is morally wrong and, in the US and many other countries, illegal.

I totally agree about the moral standard, I am not so sure about if it's right to set it on the "illegal shelf". All that principles make more food for everyday income of participants of the legal system than really being helpful for the artist.
A man or woman should be protected from having their talent and skill
poached by knockoff artists.

I was a professional musician for years and I am currently a professional photographer and I am always alert to copyright infrindgement and
avoid commiting it myself.
I agree to some level. I work in graphic design, and have been doing some music (though not professionally) and know about these codexes (codizes?). They should be highly regarded. Though in Music business, I have the strong feeling that all that napster discussion over the last years was mostly music businesses thing more than the artist’s. All the fuzz about that is more an instrument to separate the world of the money making machine of music industry from the buying client and his everyday need for some good music. If music business would accept, that the prime purpose of making/composing music is not to be a rich man someday but rather making a living, all that argue would not have reached that level…
If this guy is a good pipemaker, let him stand own his own like a man and take the chances that real artists take everyday.

Anger is sometimes a appropriate response to intentional violation of moral standards and legal code.

Best to all here,
Steve
Yep, anger is at least a better response than giving up pipemaking. But it can have you more or less driven away from your work.
It would be easier, if pipemaking was not right on that thin line between creation and craftmanship. A creator/inventor would follow every legal way of having his creations protected while creating them (patent or design registrations, etc.) and afterwards (sueing the copycat). A crafter does not act on that level. So what are we going to do?
In my view, this is a dilemma not so easily to be solved. I have the strong believe, that all that copyright and patent thing has risen to a level, where it leaves it's original purpose to protect the maker's rights. The last few years show the trend to patent everything on earth. And those patents are not registered by some makers but from some very wealthy companies. That is not the way – I believe – it was meant to be.
Allthough I find all our concerns about our work and the inherent rights rather correct, I do have a feeling that the principle behind it is rather delicate and should be questioned from case to case. So I didn't want it to be discussed on a simple "that's mine, nobody else can do it" level.
I still believe, intellectual, cultural and industrial evolution does not work because of copyright, but against it. A Contradiction, you say? Yes, Sir. One out of the many I see in man's life.
Alexander Frese
www.quarum.de
User avatar
bolasdefuego
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by bolasdefuego »

The last few years show the trend to patent everything on earth. And those patents are not registered by some makers but from some very wealthy companies. That is not the way – I believe – it was meant to be
.

Alex,

(First please forgive me if this is not 100% related to the original thread, but I like where Alex and Steve are taking it.)

This is perhaps the most important reason why individuals attempting to make a living from their creativity, should show the utmost respect for each other.
In particular those allready established, should show respect for those bringing new contributions.
Abuse of one's prominent status, especially, based on politics, petit jelousies, rumors and ignorance, is but a reflection of fear and malice.

Imagination has no value, it is an intangible to those with no vision, that is until they first, vigorously reject it, followed by helping themselves to it, then mass producing it, packaging it and sell it. Then of course it was their idea to begin with.

Originality by design, might well prove to be impossible to achieve, at least among humans, since for one to have been able to achieve
100% originality one must have had to sample (get exposed, study) 100% of the available, known, allready there. By 5% you are severely biased, at 10% you are forgetful, at 25% you enter the prima donna stage, at 75% you are a big whore, and as you approach 90% you are god. (kind of describes college) At least in your eyes...


I remember Trevert Talbert recently, on another forum making an attempt to convey that one who is involved first hand in an art form perhaps sees more in a shape or a profile than what he called a collector can see.
At risk of putting words in his mouth, (I think he has plenty of good ones on his own) he might have been trying to convey how one with first hand involvment can see the very essence within the whole, and that "idea"
is what is important really and not the shape or a particular solution.

That without a doubt, reflects an artist's ideals, the mindset of one who is putting 100% of him or her self into his work. Passion!

But the red mist of passion alone can cloud one's vision.
I feel I share those ideals, but they have been perhaps tamed by the realisation that a vaccum happens only in space, and at surface level, we all are attempting to exploit the best qualities of our materials and technologies. I our particular quest, this gets compounded by the characteristics of our primary material, which imposses to a large extent "guidance", furthemore if you consider we are all getting supplied by a handful of coupeurs (Whom now talk and consult among themselves in an effort to provide us with the "ideal" block) you may beging to understand how easy it is to see an overlap on the finished products that might have arisen from completedly different concepts.

In my creative proccess I sketch my ideas from paper to wood and back again, as many times as I feel are necessary to define my designs.
This gives me perhaps and advantage as far as being able to establish a date of conception, but I understand that not everybody uses the same process.

The shapping of "movements" happens because of open dialog among its participants, and not behind closed doors and behind people's backs.
Much less by hypochritical essays of "Career Track" quasi intellectual types, with zero talent.

Real messages exist behind convolution. Just look carefully.



DL
magruder
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Norfolk
Contact:

Post by magruder »

Alex,

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that we may have a bit of difference about copying.

To very much simplify my position; I would say that if one agrees that it is wrong to copy anothers work to the exactness we are discussing, then the course is to shun the copier and shun the purchasers and supporters of that copying. It is poaching. I will not ignore, support or ( to the extent of my influence) allow the practice. If it were my work, I'd sue for sure.
You don't have to use a lawyer to employ the legal system-
at least not in the US. I've done it, and won.
Judges almost always find for the plaintiffs in these cases - as a matter of law, not by who hired the smartest lawyer.
Besides, lawyers must eat too. And some buy tobacco and pipes.

Another point-
If I held stock in the "Love Gieger Corp.",
I would be a victim as well as he. Both of us would lose money.

As to persons purchasing knockoffs because they can't afford an original, well, that cuts into the sales of say... Stanwell or Bjarne,etc.
It also lessens the value of the original by reducing the rareness of the shape.

If I wished a less expensive version of my work out in the world, I would hire others to produce it. That would provide employment for workers and income to us both that we rightfully earn.

When does anothers' right to what they want supercede my right to preserve my property?

Sure, adopting elements of another man's work is part of the creative process as you and DL have said.

However, Love's pipe is CALLED his signature/logo pipe.
Poaching that design by this Russian fellow couldn't be more blatant and I find it, frankly, indefensible.

Respect the artist and the art by not creating lesser versions.

My very best to all,
Steve
alexanderfrese
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Bochum, Germany
Contact:

Post by alexanderfrese »

magruder wrote:…snip

Respect the artist and the art by not creating lesser versions.

snip…
Steve, I think we can perfectly agree on that basis. There is hardly anything to add.
My only fear is that respect is a moral value you can't preserve with a legal system. You can't whip people into being up to any given moral standard, you hardly can stop them from doing wrong, mostly you only can legally punish their behaviour. I am not too happy with that development, either…

I must have missed the fact, that it was Love’s signature/logo pipe. This really adds some very foul taste to that copy.

My thoughts were not centered that much around business and monetary concerns about copying creativ work. It just struck my mind, that that new patent policy I mentioned earlier (i.e. companies patenting processes they only discovered, but not invented, esp. in very sensible areas like food or medicine processing, that – to my opinion – must be public for the sake of our globe…) must be founded somewhere in our heads. So I wanted to take add some thoughts from another point of view about the pros and cons. But maybe that's just me trying to be a smartass.

:dunno:
Alexander Frese
www.quarum.de
User avatar
bolasdefuego
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by bolasdefuego »

Sure, adopting elements of another man's work is part of the creative process as you and DL have said.
Steve,

I did not say that at all.
What I did say, is that based on the characteristics of the material.
Two designs driven by two distinct concepts could yield overlaps in the execution.

DL
User avatar
bscofield
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Illinois
Contact:

Post by bscofield »

bolasdefuego wrote:
Sure, adopting elements of another man's work is part of the creative process as you and DL have said.
Steve,

I did not say that at all.
What I did say, is that based on the characteristics of the material.
Two designs driven by two distinct concepts could yield overlaps in the execution.

DL
Of course they could. But I don't think anyone is doubting at this point that the man is marketing himself as one who can dupe other's work. So we're not talking about "overlap" we're talking about a guy who stands outside the museum and says to the people walking out:

*makes criminal'ish whisper voice*

"You lik'a da Mona Lisa, yes? I can paint you'a da Mona Lisa for less money. Yes?"
magruder
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Norfolk
Contact:

Post by magruder »

DL,

I am sorry for lumping you into that statement.
Your point was/is well made and I agree with it.


Alex,
I agree that patenting every little thing is abuse of the system.
I was just pointing out that what this fellow does is so counter to good civilized behavior, that laws are in place to prevent it.
Most societies see it that way.
I wish there were no need for such laws, but not everyone will be of good character and some behavior has to be stopped or prevented if possible.

Best to all,
Steve
User avatar
bolasdefuego
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by bolasdefuego »

(First please forgive me if this is not 100% related to the original thread, but I like where Alex and Steve are taking it.)

Ben,

I am sorry I diverged, I agreed in a prior post, "levis for Lada" syndrome.
I was just responding to what Alex mentioned.

My neighbour patented what I think is a Shiphon, which has been patented for milenia.
His is for champagne!

That goes to show todays slacker standards for issuing patents.

DL
User avatar
Nick
Posts: 2171
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Connecticut

Post by Nick »

Great discussion guys. I think the fact that it is his signature pipe really does add to the sting. From a practical point, I wonder if the guy would have bought a Geiger pipe if he hadn't bought the knock off? Maybe.

Clearly the guy is talented, and has developed a niche for himself. I find the exactness of his copy reprehensible. But the sad truth is that there is probably very little one can do to find resolution. Just life I guess. No one ever said life was fair.
User avatar
bscofield
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Illinois
Contact:

Post by bscofield »

bolasdefuego wrote:(First please forgive me if this is not 100% related to the original thread, but I like where Alex and Steve are taking it.)

Ben,

I am sorry I diverged, I agreed in a prior post, "levis for Lada" syndrome.
I was just responding to what Alex mentioned.

My neighbour patented what I think is a Shiphon, which has been patented for milenia.
His is for champagne!

That goes to show todays slacker standards for issuing patents.

DL
Oh... So sorry. I didn't know that you had meant completely off the topic at hand... :oops:
User avatar
ArtGuy
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Indiana
Contact:

Post by ArtGuy »

They call this plagiarism. This is no different than someone replicating one of my paintings mark for mark and selling it as their own original statement.

This is quite different than making something as an homage or creating a new version of a pipe shape that has now become a part of the overall visual lexicon ( for example: Ivarsson's blowfish, Nordh's horn, Eltang's Ukulele, Knutson's Elephants Foot, Castello's Hawkbill etc. )

This steps over the line.
User avatar
LexKY_Pipe
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Lexington, Kentucky USA

Post by LexKY_Pipe »

John

You're absolutely right. Plagiarism is the stealing of ideas, not just the stealing of the words themselves.
Craig

From the heart of the Blue Grass.
Lexington, KY

loscalzo.pipes@gmail.com
User avatar
ArtGuy
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Indiana
Contact:

Post by ArtGuy »

You would have to cut someone some slack when they are going through the process of finding their own voice. While doing that their work may indeed tend to appear derivative of someone elses product and show a heavy influence.

However, it seems obvious to me that this carver is making no such attempt. He is merely using his techical skill to copy and undersell other makers because he lacks the creativity and/or work ethic needed to develop his own visual statement.
magruder
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Norfolk
Contact:

Post by magruder »

RE: Above ^^

John,
The guy is selling these really tight copys for less than a third the cost of an original.
He's just making a buck... er... ruble.

@ Love and Rolandos' expense.

Best,
Steve
User avatar
ArtGuy
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Indiana
Contact:

Post by ArtGuy »

I am in full agreement with that. It is reprehensible
Post Reply