Can a Master have limitations

pipeyeti · Post by **pipeyeti** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:56 pm

I agree completely with what you are saying Jeff. My point is why use an example that you will not defend? If you are worried that it would be percieved as a slam why bring it up at all. You made your point very well with out it. Thats all I am saying. I agree each maker has thier own strengths and weakness . Some guys do the freehand thing very well some do the classics and some just create art that happens to be smokable. They should each be judged in the particular style. Todd is correct in that there are very few that can do it all well.

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:06 pm

I would just like to point out that I could not make that pipe either.

Rad

pipeyeti · Post by **pipeyeti** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:20 pm

Rad I was gonna order one.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:38 am

pipeyeti wrote: My point is why use an example that you will not defend? If you are worried that it would be percieved as a slam why bring it up at all.

I didn't realize it would prove contentious or I wouldn't have used it. It's one thing to say something like "ya know, Detroit isn't the most charming city in the world." It's another thing to list publicly all the things you don't like about it. I'm just not willing to engage in a discussion wherein someone has misperceived my comment as a "slam."

Jess is a true master, but it doesn't mean he could make every single pipe everyone else has ever made. That was my only point.

Todd

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:18 pm

Here! Here! lound and clear, Todd.
I originally posed the question because I beleive that a Master should know how to make all known classic styles. Whether he chooses to, is a personal choice. On the other hand I would not expect him to know how to sculpt a block, because that is a totally different talent. A sculptor can be a pipemaker but not neccessarily the other way around.

kbadkar · Post by **kbadkar** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:38 pm

Tano wrote: A sculptor can be a pipemaker but not neccessarily the other way around.

I know a brilliant "master" sculptor that couldn't be a pipemaker. The whole drilling thing would annoy and frustrate him to no end.

kbadkar · Post by **kbadkar** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:10 pm

I should add that he believes if the object created is functional, it is not art, it is craft - no matter how artistically executed. He also the least pompous and down-to-earth guy I know.

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:36 pm

This is a huge topic of debade between Fine Artists and Craftsmen, still going on today. You can probably assume that it is a matter of interest on his part. He most likely would rather spend his time sculpting than making a pipe, and if he wants a pipe he would probably get you to make one for him.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:18 pm

kbadkar wrote:I should add that he believes if the object created is functional, it is not art, it is craft - no matter how artistically executed. He also the least pompous and down-to-earth guy I know.

It's a fair assertion and I've not yet thought it all the way through. Certainly we all have a bit of a protectionist bent, and creating boundary markers is the way we as humans differentiate between ourselves and the "other." It's natural to build a wall around what we do personally and say that everything outside that wall is precluded from being defined in similar fashion to that which is inside. This is really worth spending some more time thinking about.

Todd

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:49 am

kbadkar wrote:I should add that he believes if the object created is functional, it is not art, it is craft - no matter how artistically executed. He also the least pompous and down-to-earth guy I know.

He's entitled to his opinion, but I believe differently. I recently mentioned to Kurt, privately, my view on the art/craft thing: Craftsman - primarily technical accomplishments; Artist - primarily fine art accomplishments; Artisan - a combination of both in varying degrees into which category both knifemaking and pipemaking fall. It sounds as if your friend is trying to defend his domain of Fine Art against Craftsmanship. I believe Artisanship bridges the two.

I fail to see how your friend could view this Gotoh pipe as not worthy of being called art, since it combines the supreme skill of an Artist, yea(arch.), a sculptor, while still being a functionally Crafted pipe, the accomplishment of a Master Artisan:

[img]http://pipedia.org/images/thumb/2/28/KE ... Pipe05.jpg[/img]

Having said all this, let me add one more thing: Neither a Rodin sculpture nor a Bo Nordh pipe give a crap who made them - it is we egotistical humans who try to make these distinctions. If this weren't the case, this thread would have wound down after a couple of posts.

kbadkar · Post by **kbadkar** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:23 am

Frank wrote:He's entitled to his opinion, but I believe differently.

I do too. Not sure why though. I haven't fleshed it out with him, because there's no sense in debating with Winnie-the-Pooh. He'll just continue licking the honey pot, humming a rhyme that's awaiting verses.

I think his point is that art is for art's sake, and therefore has a different "purpose", but that's not meant to diss craftsmenship and the sublime beauty form and function can achieve in the right hands.

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:03 pm

I keep rubbing blocks of briar between my hands to get them warmed up and all stretchy like that, but I can't seem to get it to work. I could make that pipe out of Play-Dough though. Maybe.