Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

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ToddJohnson
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by ToddJohnson »

KurtHuhn wrote:Yeah, let's be careful about which words get put in Kurt's mouth. He gets indigestion easily. :)

In all seriousness, I do enjoy a good natured discussion about artistic intent. However, my interest wanes the moment I detect an ounce of arrogance. At that point it becomes nothing short of tedious, and the conversation usually devolves in one person talking and me grunting in vague acknowledgement of noises falling out the other person's mouth. I love art, and love to discuss it, but I'm not prepared to bear witness to someone stroking their own ego in such a fashion.
Kurt,

It's not arrogant to throw out fodder for discussion and offer an opinion on it. If I were stroking my own ego, I would write some lengthy description of how brilliant that pipe was, rather than tossing it out there for people to critique. I'm just interested to hear people's opinions on how pipes may function as "art" rather than "craft." They're really no different than pottery--which is viewed and collected as art in many circles--and I've enjoyed hearing a lot of really thoughtful commentary on this. There's a healthy debate amongst artists, critics, and art consumers about the appropriateness of an artist offering commentary on his/her work. I'm of the opinion that an artist lessens his/her work by doing so and sought to explain that opinion in my blog, nothing more. If you read yourself into that narrative somewhere and didn't like it, I'm sorry. I think I've learned a great deal about that pipe from listening to others' commentary on it, and I consider that a really good thing. That's why I enjoy discussing these things within the pipe community. There are people from a wide variety of backgrounds who bring their varied perspectives and specific types of expertise to such discussions. I think that too is a good thing. If you wish to "grunt in vague acknowledgment" of the discussion, I have no real problem with that, though.

TJ
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by ToddJohnson »

Sasquatch wrote:So my target audience of Chinese lesbian carpenters with advanced aeronautics degrees is the problem. No wonder no one understands my pipes.
Chinese lesbian carpenters are so fickle, especially the ones with advanced aeronautics degrees. :D

That was funny.

TJ
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by KurtHuhn »

ToddJohnson wrote: It's not arrogant to throw out fodder for discussion and offer an opinion on it. If I were stroking my own ego, I would write some lengthy description of how brilliant that pipe was, rather than tossing it out there for people to critique. I'm just interested to hear people's opinions on how pipes may function as "art" rather than "craft." They're really no different than pottery--which is viewed and collected as art in many circles--and I've enjoyed hearing a lot of really thoughtful commentary on this. There's a healthy debate amongst artists, critics, and art consumers about the appropriateness of an artist offering commentary on his/her work. I'm of the opinion that an artist lessens his/her work by doing so and sought to explain that opinion in my blog, nothing more. If you read yourself into that narrative somewhere and didn't like it, I'm sorry. I think I've learned a great deal about that pipe from listening to others' commentary on it, and I consider that a really good thing. That's why I enjoy discussing these things within the pipe community. There are people from a wide variety of backgrounds who bring their varied perspectives and specific types of expertise to such discussions. I think that too is a good thing. If you wish to "grunt in vague acknowledgment" of the discussion, I have no real problem with that, though.
Actually, I agree, Todd. But I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned ego stroking. I'm sorry you took it as such. I was invoking ghosts of my past at university where I took and art and architecture courses as part of my minor course of study, got fed up, and finally left to drive a tractor trailer. And I didn't read myself into either your post on the blog or anything you wrote here until you invoked my name a couple posts back. Seems like just another missed communication between us, which seems necessary to have happen about twice per year either on my part or yours.

I read your blog with some interest, even though I don't agree with some talking points. It *is* good to put things out there for discussion. And when you do, sometimes the discussion makes a left turn into an area you never expected. Such as, instead of talking about the pipe, I took the posting as more a commentary of potential discourse. The pipe was just held up as sidebar to the real post involving the appropriateness or relevance of an artist's explanation of their work. It's that potential discourse of any artistic piece that, in my experience, can easily descend into ego stroking among like-minded folks, or arrogant ranting among people that see different ideals and "meanings" in the piece. Either way, when that happens, I lose interest and will generally leave the discussion. Or grunt in vague acknowledgment.
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by mredmond »

I agree with Todd regarding the the responsibility of the artist. Explaining intent doesn't generally benefit the audience's experience, and can often be negative. There is a reason that artists don't stand next to their work and talk in museums, and its not logistics. I think most artists will understand this, but the intent of art is an ever changing, abstract concept that the artist often doesn't fully understand. Todd implies this with his comments about how he feels about the piece. Often intent changes with each work and sometimes the intent of a piece will change multiple times during it's life cycle. So many artists are afraid to admit that they made a work of art simply because they like the process of creation (a primal human instinct) or because they thought it would please them aesthetically. There is a strange idea in the art world that art must always be academic in its intent, and this, in my opinion, is incorrect and counterproductive. I don't want to be told what a piece of art means by a person that probably doesn't entirely know themselves. I do, however, feel that discussing art is important and productive and applaud Todd for starting this conversation. It's been the most thought provoking topic for me so far this week.

Another point to consider is language. We learn to read, write, and speak by being immersed in language. We hear sounds and see letters and words all around us, until it starts to make sense. Art has it's own visual language and without experiencing the elements of that language one cannot expect to understand it in a meaningful way. I don't understand Chinese, but that doesn't make it an unsuccessful or ugly language. If I immersed myself visually and aurally in Chinese, I would eventually start to understand it. The same is true of art, whether it be classical or postmodern. It's important too, to realize that the function of art is not always beauty. The world is not always beautiful, so why would abstracted manifestations of the world always be beautiful. I find some of the things that are most interesting to me aesthetically are imperfect, flawed, decayed.

That said, pipes aren't always art, but sometimes they very much are. It saddens me a bit that so many miss out on that because they can't look past the function. Sometimes form and function find themselves as equals.

On to the pipe...I find the pipe itself to be thought provoking. It's had me thinking a lot about the differences between eastern and western design philosophies and I think these schools of thought are the defining influence on how it is viewed.

The classic western school of thought is a pursuit of perfection. We try to find truth/perfection via mathematics, God, etc. and we try to duplicate it via science and industry (Ex: Isaac Newton, the Golden Mean, and Dunhill standard shapes). Viewed in this context, the pipe is awkward and confusing

Eastern philosophy seems to maintain a greater sense of wonder re: nature and doesn't try (as hard) to reduce things down to the smallest mathematical unit. They revel in the imperfections of nature. When one thinks about Japanese art for instance, the connection with nature is of the utmost importance. Japanese woodblock printing, haiku, calligraphy, pottery, furniture design, etc, etc all maintain a strong connection to nature, either by using it as a primary theme or by allowing nature's flaws to shine through. (Ex: Hokusai's woodblock prints, George Nakashima's furniture, Tokutomi's pipes). My wife has a small cup she purchased in Japan while studying pottery there (lucky!), that perfectly illustrates this. It is obviously created and decorated by a person (there are unglazed spots where the potters fingers were placed when he dipped it in glaze), but it is also rough to the touch and slightly asymmetrical. It simultaneously connects you with the human who made it and the imperfect natural world from which it's materials were harvested.

I think that this pipe, when viewed with an eastern (specifically Japanese) viewpoint, is quite successful. I'm sure looking at this pipe while reading a haiku about spring's first bloom after winter could give one a new way of looking at it. Yellow stem as blooming flower, anyone? Dark, rusticated surface as a winter skeleton of a tree? Smooth, beautifully grained section as nature's unrealized perfection?

Oh yeah, and it's totally badass that Todd made a pipe that is a volcano and a blowfish at the same time. I'm sure not too many people would think to do that.

-Micah

p.s. My intent is not to be an egotistical art wanker type, and hopefully you don't interpret me as such...I just really enjoy thinking about and discussing these topics. Thanks all, for the lively discussion.
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by Alan L »

Image

This is an example of "art" that is not. There are those who will say the meaning of this piece is to force us to challenge our own perception, to strive to see things in a different light, and so on.

Bullshit. It's a cute picture Magritte made to convince people he was somehow more intellegent and avant-garde than they were, because he liked messing with peoples' heads. It means he was a fraud. A good illustrator with a stoner's sophomoric sense of humor, though.

I dont think we need to go down the art versus craft debate again, I find it too annoying. Every year I have to try to convince the local art guild that functional objects can be considered art, and every year I'm met with blank stares that quickly dismiss anything functional as capable of being art. :fencing: Folk art perhaps, but not real art.

Wankers. (Them, not you guys!)
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by ToddJohnson »

e Markle wrote:"It is the task of the artist to create--paint, sing, write, sculpt, what have you--not to ascribe "meaning." This, in the end, must be left to an interpretive community, and ultimately to history."
(Todd's Part 1 entry)

I wish I could pin-point the reason, but I tend to reject this out of hand. I subscribe to a more teleological approach which emphasizes the artist's intent.


Lots of people reject this out of hand, and it's usually because they take an historical positivist approach to everything they view. If you look at texts, sculpture, etc., though, you'll be confronted by the fact that those things have "meant" differently--if objects can "mean" at all--throughout the centuries. Since you're using traditionally Christian binary terms--"relativism" and "absolute truth"--perhaps the history (and geography) of Biblical hermeneutics would be a good example. The parable of the prodigal son "means" differently at various points in history and in various geographical locals. In Africa, for instance, it's often exposited as a story about poverty and famine. The prodigal son is not reviled for his "wanton" behavior. It's just sort of a side-point. In the West, rather than the global South, it's a story about the son's greed and licentiousness. These are just two of many "meanings" for the parable. I suppose you could look at your own contemporary and geographically specific hermeneutic and say, simply "well yes, but all those other readings are wrong," but that's a pretty arrogant space to inhabit.
It seems to me that we, the audience, could view the atomic bomb as an inspiring work of art (such sublimely stunning lines!), but I think the purpose is much more important than those sleek lines. Maybe I'm playing too casual with your words, so forgive me if I'm taking that too far, but my point is that most, if not all, things are created for a purpose.


The ridiculous example of the atomic bomb notwithstanding, I agree with you. Many things are created for a "purpose," but that does not limit the scope of their significance outside the context of that original purpose. One of my degrees is basically in ancient epistles, and when one person writes a letter to another, I think it's important to try and understand the writer's "intent." It does give us a jumping off point for determining its contemporary significance within our own community (if it is to have one). The problem is that limiting such texts to their "original intended meaning" makes them irrelevant to us. For instance Paul admonishes the Christian community not to eat meat sacrificed to idols alongside a "weaker brother" lest it make him "stumble." If that's all it means, then for those of us in the modern West, the text is dead. If, however, we extrapolate broader principles from the text, it remains relevant and continues to speak to us. In brief, it "means" differently to us now than it did in the 1st Century world.
That purpose gives us a starting point, a context, from which any and every interpretation flows. Without understanding the seminal inspiration (cut me a bit of slack on that) couldn't we find ourselves seeing beauty in something that was created not only to kill, maim and destroy but even in something designed to be kitsch?


Yes, Andy Warhol comes to mind. Why you've paired kitsch with the atomic bomb, however, I can't quite understand.
From several posts here and entries on your blog, I've learned you're more or less a postmodernist (I believe you once referred to yourself as a "good postmodernist" :) ). I am not. Although I may not call myself a modernist, I tend to identify with that side of the spectrum. I believe in absolute truth and even correct interpretations. I think that intent is paramount in both creation and interpretation.


It's nice that you believe those things, but you present no real argument for why "intent is paramount in both creation and interpretation." Sometimes I arrive at what I consider a beautiful end merely by a confluence of luck and intuition. Does it matter that a pipe wound up that way without my specific intent? If it's beautiful, isn't it just beautiful? Do you have kids? Have they ever painted something for you that blows your mind? Mine have, and I doubt they had specific intentions to do so.
My analysis: I think it's an interesting piece. Why? Because you set out to create a pipe that melded two distinct shapes, and you succeeded (in melding those shapes). I wouldn't call the pipe beautiful, but I think a primary reason for that is that it seems to me (can a modernist even say that???) that your primary goal was to meld these two shapes, not create a beautiful pipe. I say this because I don't think this would have been your primary choice in shapes had you set out with beauty as your primary goal. Is it cool? Sure. Would I buy it? Probably not, and certainly not based on a standard of beauty. If I were a collector looking to round out my collection with some pieces of interest, then, sure I'd pick it up.
Thanks for the analysis.
You've dredged up all that curiosity from my philosophy classes, and although this is getting lengthy, I do want to ask, where is our point of divergence? Are you crazy enough to believe that monstrosity is beautiful? ;) But seriously, do you believe in absolute truth?
I think that's probably neither a relevant nor an appropriate question, but I will simply say I do not believe that this pipe has one absolute "interpretation," or is capable of "meaning" one specific thing. In your analysis, you brought your own "meaning" to it. Someone else will bring another, and someone else another.

TJ
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by e Markle »

ToddJohnson wrote:Many things are created for a "purpose," but that does not limit the scope of their significance outside the context of that original purpose. One of my degrees is basically in ancient epistles, and when one person writes a letter to another, I think it's important to try and understand the writer's "intent." It does give us a jumping off point for determining its contemporary significance within our own community (if it is to have one).
Ah, ok, we're closer than I initially thought. I probably tend to focus on intent more than you, but I must confess, I've revised my overall opinion based on your posts. I only had one course in aesthetics proper, but in swaying me, you've accomplished more than a semester of study. :)

Thanks for the insights.
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by RadDavis »

Haddo's in a Tinsky.

Rad
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by Alan L »

RadDavis wrote:Haddo's in a Tinsky.

Rad
Now THAT'S art! :notworthy:
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by Leus »

RadDavis wrote:Haddo's in a Tinsky.

Rad
You forgot to put "AD."
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by ToddJohnson »

Never liked Haddos.

TJ

P.S. Like Tinsky, though. Good guy. :D
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by m.c. »

The Berimbau pipe is a failure, neither beautiful nor ugly, simply mediocre and not even worth a comment. Sorry, Todd.

The second one could be a milestone. I can see how many complicated techniques are involved. The lines are swimming between "mathematically passable" and "visually twisted". No second-rate pipemaker can make a pipe as scandalous as that and it certainly takes a lot of thinking and effort, for that point I'm sure. However, I see this pipe as something packed with techniques but wanting in the ONE most important thing -- enchantment. It has reminded me of the hilariously clumsy villain in Man in Black, but if you want to present something really "enchanting" in the unusual way, I think you may wanna look to Dr. Hannibal Lecter or the Red Dragon instead of a funny shuffling wormman. Don't just go for the ugly. Go for the evil!

I honestly do not hate mental masturbation.
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by Leus »

m.c. wrote:The Berimbau pipe is a failure, neither beautiful nor ugly, simply mediocre and not even worth a comment. Sorry, Todd.
This may validate the whole discussion. I think that pipe is an extraordinary piece; my guess it's a difficult shape to attempt, but mostly it is interesting, provoking and beautiful. I would never qualify such work as "mediocre."
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by ToddJohnson »

m.c. wrote:The Berimbau pipe is a failure, neither beautiful nor ugly, simply mediocre and not even worth a comment. Sorry, Todd.

The second one could be a milestone. I can see how many complicated techniques are involved. The lines are swimming between "mathematically passable" and "visually twisted". No second-rate pipemaker can make a pipe as scandalous as that and it certainly takes a lot of thinking and effort, for that point I'm sure. However, I see this pipe as something packed with techniques but wanting in the ONE most important thing -- enchantment. It has reminded me of the hilariously clumsy villain in Man in Black, but if you want to present something really "enchanting" in the unusual way, I think you may wanna look to Dr. Hannibal Lecter or the Red Dragon instead of a funny shuffling wormman. Don't just go for the ugly. Go for the evil!

I honestly do not hate mental masturbation.
Well, Milton, at least we have a definitive analysis now. Also, I appreciate your economy of speech regarding the Berimbau. Let us only hope that the refusal to comment on mediocrity does not catch on here.

TJ
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by m.c. »

ToddJohnson wrote:...I appreciate your economy of speech regarding the Berimbau. Let us only hope that the refusal to comment on mediocrity does not catch on here.TJ
What I said is entirely subjective. No, not "refusal". Saying it's not worth a comment is a way of comment. But now I'd like to expand a tiny bit. That Berimbau pipe, if it had come out of the hands of a rookie like me, would be in every way worth of comment and probably some fussing over. Yet knowing it is from a man like you, I'd take the liberty to say it's medicore. This pipe is good in flow of lines (individual lines) and quality of finish. At the same time there is some neither daring nor delicate awkwardness (shape of bowl and its uninterestingly being sunk in a concave curve). Even the lines of the shank which are not bad if you look at individual parts, appear fragmented and unsmart when seen as a whole. It's hard to describe (partly the reason for my curt delirium), but I'd like to compare that to a woman who has fair skin, shining eyes, golden hair, good proportions, nice talk and neat dress, but is just boring for no known reason. Well, maybe OK if you are out for a fling, but speaking of art, I'd rather prefer appreciating a hag. On this pipe you have rigidly pieced together what is beautiful and what is not. There isn't coherent chemistry (sign of mediocrity?). The shapes of the bowl and the "ankle" even give some suggestions of unseriousness. In contrast, the other pipe is coherently ugly and shocking (result of more thorough "aesthetic engineering"?). That's the difference.

Again, entirely subjective.
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by T3pipes »

m.c. wrote:That Berimbau pipe, if it had come out of the hands of a rookie like me, would be in every way worth of comment and probably some fussing over. Yet knowing it is from a man like you, I'd take the liberty to say it's medicore.
So, you are not actually commenting on the pipe, but on the pipe maker. Another aspect of the art world that has not been discussed here-- Are things better simply because person-X made it?
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by KurtHuhn »

T3pipes wrote:So, you are not actually commenting on the pipe, but on the pipe maker. Another aspect of the art world that has not been discussed here-- Are things better simply because person-X made it?
I don't think that they are inherently better, but that the name recognition carries purchase and clout among pipe collectors. You can say that, given a well-known name, there are expectations of quality and artistic merit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a pipe made by a certain person is better than others. However, I have read comments in the past along the lines of "well, that's pipemaker-x, he can do that and get away with it". So is it better, or are folks just more willing to deal with the flaws or clumsiness of a pipe if it comes from pipemaker-x?
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by FredS »

KurtHuhn wrote:. . .I have read comments in the past along the lines of "well, that's pipemaker-x, he can do that and get away with it". . .
We've all heard observers of folk art or some of Warhols work say "That's art? My kid could do that." I have an idea that Todd could stick a cumberland stem on a cob and sell it for a few hundred bucks as a minimalist piece because he’s earned his chops with collectors by his past work. Not that he would do that, or could do that very long, but the market will certainly provide some latitude for experimentation by well known carvers.
"Cut your own wood and you warm yourself twice." - Henry Ford
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by ToddJohnson »

FredS wrote:
KurtHuhn wrote: the market will certainly provide some latitude for experimentation by well known carvers.
I think that's a keen observation. In a lot of ways, you do earn the right to experiment. As a carver, if you don't experiment, your work gets stale quickly. On the other side of that, when you experiment constantly, you're unlikely to develop a consistent or coherent aesthetic as a baseline. I think once that baseline is established, the more avant garde work can be viewed as a departure from the established standard, sort of a play on it. Some collectors will grant you that latitude--a few will even be willing to move to a new place with you--and some collectors will say simply "I don't like it. It doesn't resemble his usual stuff." It's always a bit like walking a tight-rope, but that's what makes it so enjoyable.

TJ
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Re: Blog Update: Is this pipe ugly?

Post by Nick »

I haven't read through the entire thread yet, nor the entirety of both blog posts. Just too much going on.

I find both pieces very beautiful. Certainly in an abstract sort of way, but appealing nonetheless. The calvelier reminds me of a bird with outstretching wings carrying an egg. If i were to dwell on it, I imagine I would find some creation mythos in there. Its wonderfuly fluid and when standing it seems to me that the bird is spiraling downward in ever tighter arcs.

The second piece, I really love. The obtuse angle of the stem. The erupting blister on the side of the blowfish. I love the yellow as well, but that's not what really caught me. To me the pipe seemed to be a moment as a fish was speared. The blasting adding a texture of scales and the vocano like bowl seeming to burst outward, as in and half second, the spear point will burst forward, carring buts and blood into the water. I love the catured motion and the deadly momentum implied. Perhaps my interpritation is a bit morbit, but i'd certainly love to have the pipe myself.

honestly, the color of the stem, which got prominent notes in the first few post ( I skipped ahead so as to not have my clearly wacked out visions skewed by others' views) brought the least impression out of the whole. I was much more taken byt the off center shank and raw curves in the bowl. Just wonderful shaping. Plus, I really like bright colors. I just ordered a meter of that orange vulcanite from the artplastic play yesterday, and can't wait to use it.

Edit:

Huh! So here I was looking at the pipes and you all were talking about talking about the pipes we looked at. I suppose intent is an important aspect of art, but it seems to me that each person necessarily needs to find their own meaning in an object for there to be a real connection between the observer and the object. On the one hand, I do enjoy pipe makers talking about their various pipes. But what I enjoy is seeing or feeling the connection that they have with the pipes. If I were to aquire such a pipe, I think it would be all the more wonderful to know what was in the carver's mind as he or she made it. I would also have my own view of the pipe, and these two view points would add up to somthing greater than the separate parts.

I recently got a pipe from Adam davidson - really from sp.com, but Adam made it. Its a wonderful shape, and i just love it. I'd mentioned to Tony at sp.com that i'd love to talk to Adam about the pipe. Its not a description of the pipe that interested me. Nor an interpritation. What has meaning to me is the mindset in making it. Did he start off making a Brazil nut? Did his hands just wander why carving it? Where did the idea come from, and what did he learn from it? Kinda like background information I guess. I can interprit the hell out of it on my own.

Perhaps what is meaninful to me - just thinking while I'm writing here - is the connection to the carver via the pipe. As some one else noted above, art is a language of its own. (or somthing like that was said...i think.) What i love about collecting particular pipes is the conversations had through those pipes.
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