Let's Talk Aesthetics

[Alden]

You're just confused by Plato, as evidenced by the fact that you think you are a better pipe maker than he was!

I'm wracking my brain to come up with some witty "Ship of Pipemakers" or "Parable of the (man) Cave" references. But you guys are already over my head
(shrugs shoulders and walks away)

[Tyler]

You're just confused by Plato, as evidenced by the fact that you think you are a better pipe maker than he was!

I'm wracking my brain to come up with some witty "Ship of Pipemakers" or "Parable of the (man) Cave" references. But you guys are already over my head

We're over our head's too, that's the problem.

Well, OK, maybe not over Sas's what with his formal edumukation, but anyone who's nickname is Sasquatch and lives in Canada ain't too overly N'tullectully 'vanced, eh?

[Alden]

Well its a fascinating debate. I feel bad now for derailing it.....

[Sasquatch]

De-railed? Impossible on this forum. Occassionally threads accidentally "rail" themselves and come out useful, but derailing this forum is impossible. I'm surprised we're not arguing the cruising altitude of boats.

[Alden]

I'm surprised we're not arguing the cruising altitude of boats.

I dont see where aesthetics are affected by altitude per se, but the propensity for aerodynamics to effect thermodynamics, as relates to altitude, is immense.
But thats off topic, so no debate from me....

[Sasquatch]

Well, OK, maybe not over Sas's what with his formal edumukation, but anyone who's nickname is Sasquatch and lives in Canada ain't too overly N'tullectully 'vanced, eh?

Ahhh yes. Well, it's not my fault I can do certain things like, say.... read. And I understand that Americans have other strengths.

[Tyler]

Well, OK, maybe not over Sas's what with his formal edumukation, but anyone who's nickname is Sasquatch and lives in Canada ain't too overly N'tullectully 'vanced, eh?

Ahhh yes. Well, it's not my fault I can do certain things like, say.... read. And I understand that Americans have other strengths.

That's an ironic thing to...type.

But yes, we do have other strengths, like pipe making. We don't know much about nets and caves and the philosophers that write about them though.

Someone please jump in here and stop us with a serious comment, this is a fun topic.

[TRS]

I'm surprised we're not arguing the cruising altitude of boats.

African or European?

[Alden]

Ahhh yes. Well, it's not my fault I can do certain things like, say.... read. And I understand that Americans have other strengths.

Do you see him repressing me ? You saw that didnt you ??

[eric]

Interesting thread. I don't remember this being discussed since MM was on board.

Here is a Scientific American article telling us that beauty is big, round, and symmetrical.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -by-design

[PhilipMarc]

Wow. I didn't know if anyone would go there, but Tyler did it first, so I feel like I'm allowed now!

I love how the pipe making/smoking community tends to be contemplative and learned--a far cry from our generation on the whole!

Hyper-relativism is basically the cardinal sin when observing any kind of music (music from the word muse, meaning paintings, sculpture, audible music, carving, etc.). Tyler isn't just making this stuff up. These are ideals that have been wrestled with by some of the greatest minds in history!
I'm also of the persuasion that beauty (or aesthetics) IS what it IS because of WHO it reflects. James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." If God is the source of everything good, such as truth, goodness, and beauty, then nothing can be beautiful apart from its Source. God is the same, always, which dictates that beauty cannot be entirely relative. Is each briar pipe shaped like God? No. But the natural material reflects the beauty of God's creation, and humans are unique in that we seek to create beauty, projecting the image that is imprinted on us from the beginning of time ("Let us make man in Our image...) onto the material. God is the source of our imaginative capability, and our desire to create beauty. Animals ARE beautiful, because they are created by God, people are even MORE beautiful, because they are created in the IMAGE of God, but what separates us from the animals in this subject, is that animals do not have the desire to CREATE beauty. That is a Godly trait.

This subject is way awesome.

[Sasquatch]

I died for beauty, but was scarce
Adjusted in the tomb,
When one who died for truth was lain
In an adjoining room.

He questioned softly why I failed?
"For beauty," I replied.
"And I for truth - the two are one;
We brethren are," he said.

And so, as kinsmen met a-night,
We talked between the rooms,
Until the moss had reached our lips,
And covered up our names.


Emily Dickinson FTW!

[Sasquatch]

Looking at the first pipe in this thread, a plumber, a gardener, a pipemaker and a woodcarver might say:

Plumber: I hate that pipe. It looks corroded and I prefer solid things that I know will work. It's neat though I guess.

Gardener: I love that pipe. That makes me want to smoke a pipe and I don't even smoke. It's so organic!

Pipemaker: That's a good billiard shape. I wonder what dremel head he used for that carving? It's pretty cool.

Woodcarver: What a cool pipe. Too bad whoever made it is such an amateur at carving interwoven stuff.

I think everybody has a different set of standards from which they make judgments. Pipe collectors now look for certain things in certain traditions - the Bo Nordh stamp of flowing lines has nothing to do with a Tomahawk pipe that a Native might offer as a gift. Which is more beautiful? Does the Indian agree? What if he doesn't?

One of the things I had to get my head around was that when the "big boys" offered criticism on my pipes, offered ways in which I might change a pipe, if I followed their advice, the pipe sold immediately. Are they teaching beauty or are they teaching merely how to meet an expectation of buyers as to what a pipe "should" look like?

And yet first pipes look like first pipes, and 50th pipes like 50th. You learn to cut away more wood, to be less afraid. Learn about visually balancing and physically balancing the things.... you get "better".

Abi Natur does not carve within Danish, Italian, or English tradition. His briar pipes have an Alice-in-Wonderland feel, and they are, I think, beautiful. But nothing like what we Western-headed white boys are used to.

Actually now I'm curious - are there any black carvers carving in Danish traditions? I'd be really interested to see African influences in "ordinary" pipes.

[e Markle]

Wittgenstein seemingly anticipated us, Tyler (although I don't know if he made pipes).

The mere mention of Wittgenstein gives me a headache. Please refrain from using his name on the forum.

That being said, feel free to take his name in vain (e.g. "Son of a Wittgenstein!", or "hey guys, be back in 10, I gotta take a MASSIVE Wittgenstein"). I mean, that's totally legit.

Oh yeah, and lest the thread be high-jacked: "Yay aesthetics!"

[d.huber]

I am really excited that this thread has spawned such fantastic thoughts! Man, I feared that my first post was going to take this down a dangerous path, but it looks like everyone picked up on the initial intent. I'm loving all that's being said and look forward to hearing more!

To toss some thoughts into the mix: I have a very abstract idea of what "God" means, but I sincerely appreciate what others have said concerning God as a presence and a source in aesthetics and I agree.

As artists (and that means everyone), we all aspire to express some inner beauty that desires to speak through us. This is what I call God. How that energy speaks through us varies from person to person which is why we have such a fantastic array of methods of expression; through music, through painting, through words, through dance, through engineering, through chemistry, through the spoken word, through the written word, and some through pipe making.

I would argue that there are some shapes, lines, proportions, etc. that transcend subjectivity. I find most of those to be shapes, lines, proportions, etc. that we find in nature that are perfect without our tampering with them. For example, the common acorn is absolutely beautiful when actually observed. It's overall flow of line, the contrast and harmony between the seed and the shell which becomes the cap, and the potential that the acorn represents are all beautiful and perfect. Each is unique, yet they still hold the same intrinsic beauty, flaws and all. When someone is able to create something that falls into this realm, almost universally, people are able to appreciate the beauty in their creation.

There's a great TED talk on the subject that I highly recommend viewing: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/richar ... feels.html

[Ocelot55]

Interesting TED talk. It's worth checking out.

After seeing that brief lecture I think I am able to describe more what I think beauty is. According to Mr. Seymour we find something beautiful for several reasons. To me it boils down to pathos and familiarity. I have always been a sucker for the danish aesthetic: flowing lines, curves, an organic feel. I think I can explain my fondness based on past experience. When I really think about it, that aesthetic preference transfers over into other objects, automobiles, women, architecture ect. Someone with a different background would have developed around different things that would have become familiar to them, so their aesthetic may be different. As far as pathos is concerned in the pipe world, some pipes have special meaning to me. Maybe they were made by someone on the forum, or gifted by a dear friend. I think we find those type of things beautiful too.

This still doesn't point to some abstract ultimate objective form of beauty, but it does explain why certain cultures find some things beautiful, while others find them repugnant. Just some thoughts.....

[andrew]

I've always been curious to see if there are commonalities between "beautiful objects" in different cultures. Has anyone ever picked up on any trends that we could post up here? it would be fascinating to see some common threads in art other than pipes.

Do we have any art history buffs on the forum?

[Ocelot55]

I think there are some obvious cultural differences concerning beauty when we look at the different "schools" of the pipe making aesthetic. Think about it. Why would we call a pipe inspired by a Danish aesthetic, or English, or Italian unless there were cultural differences regarding the beauty of said object. What would Danes think of a heavily rusticated Mauro Armellini or a Castello sea rock pipe 60 years ago?

It would be interesting to see if other types of art had similar characteristics to the pipe aesthetic developed in the region. For example, is Danish art concerned about form, and flowing lines? Does Italian art emphasize texture as much as the Italian pipe making style?

Anyway, such an analysis is beyond my expertise. Where are our art majors? They really need to chime in on this.

[Sasquatch]

If you want to talk to an Art Major, I suggest the waitresses at Denny's. They have a little more time than the folks behind the counter at McDonalds.

[TRS]

If you want to talk to an Art Major, I suggest the waitresses at Denny's. They have a little more time than the folks behind the counter at McDonalds.

HEY! I'll have you know I worked at a record shop whilst I was majoring in art!