Oil Curing

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:59 am

Additionally, how long does one soak the stummel for? And then how long to heat the stummel? These seem to be the pertinant questions.

From what I have discovered the soaking process can last a number of weeks or can be sped up. To speed it up, one heats the blocks for 8 hours and then soaks them for 8 hours. The heated blocks, and assumed heated oil, will facilitate the obsorption and penetration of the oil.

As to the expulsion of the oil, apparently you can leave the stummals sitting around for a year or more and then finish them as normal. This is how it was done before Dunhill came up with the pegs. If you smoke them before a year or more has gone by then the oil will seep out of the wood, into your tobacco chamber and to the surface of the pipe. That said, apparently a year of drying was common practice. Saseini was oil curing also and came up with a special heading apparatice to get around the Dunhill patent on the peg system. These heat systems were invented solely to speed up the process, at least according to the patents.

It seemes pretty rough to have to wipe the block every few hours, especially around 2 am. What happens if you don't wipe it? Perhaps one could rough shape it, do the oil thing, and then fine shape it?

In a 1919 patent of A. Dunhill, he mentions how hard it is to remove the oil covering and likens it to an "impervious coating". It is apparent from this patent that he was having trouble removing the coating (there is a mention of the fact that buffing is not a solution). His 1919 patent is for the process of first oil curing, using heat to expell the oil and then sandblating the impervioous coating off of the wood. He mentions doing this to both rough formed as well as polished bowls. The patent mentions that the oil soaking and expulsion softens the "soft" grain thus sasndblasting gives a more attractive effect. This may explain the difference in look of the pre-1960 shell briars and the post 1960 shells. If indeed they stopped oil curing in 1960.

In William John Taylor's patent application of 1985 (when he uses steam to soften the wood prior to rustication, oil curing and then sandblasting) he mentions olive and linseed oils. These two oils are used in nearly every example that oils are named. There is a photo of soaking stummals at the Radice site, the stummals appear to be soaking in olive oil at room temperature (green color to the oil in what appears to be a plastic container)

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:49 am

Sorry, Random, I must have miss understood the purpose of this forum. I was under the impression that part of the function of this forum is to exchange ideas and experiences so we all don't have to go throught dozens ( if not hundreds) of mistakes before we can begin to master the craft. (please excuse the sarcasm

)

Many individuals don't see the point in cutting stems from blank rods and they use preformed stems, instead. I am sure that these individuals are very happy with there work (and rightly so), never the less, that doesn't mean that everyone should do it that way.

Oil curing is an extra process that a significant number of the "renouned" producers do perform and more of them have performed consitantly during the last 100 years. The fact that so many producers develop this process still today, despite the financial costs in developing the technique and in performing the process on their pipes, lends some degree of merit to oil curing. Furthermore, if this process produces a superior pipe then I am interested in this process.

The fact that some of the information is from 80 years ago is not so significant considering that most of us make pipes with the same equipment and techniques that were employed at that time. Do keep in mind that some of the information we have uncovered pertains to what is going on now ( see above:Ashton, Talbert & Radice, etc).

It is my plan to test and hopefully develop an oil curing process. That said, I would rather start the process with as much knowledge as possible so as to reduce the number of failed experiments I have to go through in order to achive the end result. That is where research comes into the picture (e.g. this forum and patents). Just look through the information contained on this thread and the referenced sources of the information. The majority of this is not "mystery-shit" but documented and referenced processes describing specific temperatures and time. For me, I would rather start with that and go from there than start with nothing and go no where.

There does seem to be some degree of interest amoung the members to exchange ideas and information about oil curing. If we can get the basic jist of the process out into the open (such as the oils to use, time and temperatures etc) then it will be possible for more people to tinker with it and do experiments. By sharing this information we can, perhaps, uncover this process and eliminate the "mystery-shit" from the truth.

Ultimately, I think your closing view applies well. This is a hobby to me and as such I don't have time pressures nor do I have to look at the bottom line. Perhaps, in the future it will be more than a hobby but for now I am doing it purely for pleasure and I don't mind indulging myself every once in a while.

I want to make great pipes for the sake of making great pipes. So many of the great pipe makers do extra processes to their wood. Put the first sentance and the second one together...I must look into this process.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:00 pm

I say go with the 10W40 and body oil method. It sounds very promising.

Todd

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:14 pm

It's my understanding that most people who have gone through the time, expense, and effort of developing a good oil-curing process proceed to keep it to themselves as a competitive edge

As Nick pointed out in the beginning of this thread, Trevor Talbert was looking for information and doing experiments with the process. Trevor was chatting on google groups (at alt.smokers.pipes) and bemoaning the lack of openness about the process. There is quite a bit of fragmented information that he put on the site about some of his experiments, successes and failures. He got some "secret hints" from Michael Butera and seemed to have been pretty happy with the end results. At that point he stopped arguing for openness and gave only encripted hints as to what to do. Combined with the other information that has been gathered, Trevor's hints are very valuable.

Before I found Tyler's site, with all of the wonderful information and contacts, I sent e-mails to a number of pipemakers. Tyler was the first, and to this day one of the few, who took the time to reply. In fact, Tyler was very quick to reply and he kindly gave me some very valuable information as to briar sources. for that I am very grateful! So, I have nothing but a positive experience with Trevor but it is a bit amusing how he changed his tune after he "figured out" oil curing. I will write that I have yet to ask Trevor any questions about oil curing. Perhaps he will be very forth coming with the information. My plan is to wait until I have some experience with it before I bother him with questions.

But let me assure all of you that I will be more than happy to share my experience with you all of you

I won't keep them to my self

....... no ...... not me

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:16 pm

Brendhain wrote:There does seem to be some degree of interest amoung the members to exchange ideas and information about oil curing. If we can get the basic jist of the process out into the open (such as the oils to use, time and temperatures etc) then it will be possible for more people to tinker with it and do experiments. By sharing this information we can, perhaps, uncover this process and eliminate the "mystery-shit" from the truth.

Please do continue your research! If for no other reason than your own edification. However, I've found your discoveries rather fascinating, and have enjoyed reading the materials you've dug up. I do not know if I want to do oil-cured pipes, but understanding how it is done is never wasted knowledge.

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:39 am

LONG LINK

It's a big address but this is one of the last message (April, 2001) from Trever Talbert pertaining to oil curing. There are some very good hints and advice but it is quite cripted. The best example is this caption:

The oil curing idea turned out to be a resounding success, though. Some time back, I happened onto THE oil to use and it has been the basis of all my oil curing work since, with minor flavor variations this way or that through mixing in other oils. Again, this isn't something
I feel at liberty to name but suffice to say that when you try it, there's
no question you hit the right mark

I will keep digging. In the end I plan to, eventually, put it all together. Then, if enough of us do little experiments based upon this research, and share the results, we may uncover the basic idea and procedures. Once this is done, one could make small variations to the pocess to create a signature taste to one's own pipes. Creating your own signiture just so happens to be what Trever recommended others to do.

If you follow the above link then you will get a climps into what I mean by variations in the process. He was really going nuts on the wood. In some cases he had five, six or even more different steps. He was obviously enjoying himself very much!!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:52 am

Very cool buddy. I was thinking about trying with Hazelnut oil, or pehaps a combination of hazelnut and olive. Not sure why really, except that I like hazelnut flavor. Additionally, I can't imagine that one wouldn't be able to sand through the "impervious coating." I mean, I'll wipe the stummel every so often, but I ain't doing it all night. I wonder what effect starting and stopping the heating process has.

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:51 am

Smoking Points of Oils.

Trever stresses to use oils with a high smoking point. I don't have hazelnut oil's but I did find these:

Sunflower 475 degrees F
Soybean 467 degrees F
Canola 460 degrees F
Corn 455 degrees F
Peanut 450 degrees F
Sesame 420 degrees F
Olive 375 degrees F

With this in mind, despite the fact that olive is mentioned in the literature, both by Dunhill in 1912 and Ashton in the 1980's, it doesn't seem the obvious choice considering Trever's advice. I do know that if you mix two oils then the smoke point of the mixture will be somewhere between the the two individual oils (though not necessarily directly in the middle).

As far as the "impervious coating" is concerned, this doesn't seem to be an issue for Trever. He makes no mention of it that I can find. Perhaps the blocks weren't boiled for very long 100 years ago and more sap and gunk was expelled. This could have been the source of the coating. If less is sap needs to be expelled with modern wood then perhaps it's not so much of an issue.

Perhaps, oil curing was standard and necessary for high end pipes 100 years ago (as Dunhill states in his first oil patent) due to poor processing by the mills. Oil curing does seem to be an "icing on the cake" issue with modern wood. Not necessary but benefitial just the same.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:35 am

Just FWIW, this is making for hilariously fun reading...

For the record, I have never yet found a technique for oil curing that I considered "production worthy", meaning that it was economically feasible AND produced measurably improved results. I'm still working on it when I have the time, however, and having access to a mountain of pre-turned stummels in identical shapes has helped a lot for comparisons. You can indeed just let a pipe sit and dry - it will take months or a year, so that busts the "economically feasible" rule. I've tried working with heated pegs that I custom-built but continually ran into problems - namely, turning the heat up enough to expel oil from the wood burns the bowl interior badly. There's also the very touchy point of burn temps to watch out for, because the oil can overheat in the wood and then it will be revolting forever. The current focus of my tests is using my wood dryer, which recirculates air over the stummels and through a filter system, then reheats it to a spec temperature. Results so far have been good but I really haven't had time for large scale tests. To sum up, your problems faced with oil curing are many-

* First, you have to choose your oils. Lots of potentials have already been named. Mainly you need oils that will actually dry, as some never do.

* Secondly you have to get the oil into the wood. Heating the stummels in advance helps greatly. Then, it's just a matter of soaking.

*Thirdly, you have to get the oil out of the wood - here is where peg drying, air drying, etc come in. Stummels can also be boile din water, which works naturally - the lighter oil boils out of the wood and skims the top of the water. You get lots of problems with deformation this way, however.

* Finally, you have to weigh and smoke the wood, and see if all that trouble has produced any results you like better than an unmodified stummel. Most common problems here are either oil leaking during smoking (from inadequate drying) or really revolting taste (or both).

Have fun!
TT

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:17 pm

Too fun Trever!

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:45 am

Trevor, I was kind of hoping you would chime in at some point.

You mentioned a problem with the interior of the bowls burning from too much heat when they are on the pegs. That made me wonder what you are using for heat source, a standard heat-plate? Scientific or laboratory heat-plates are much more accurate and can be set to a specific temperature, while regular heat-plates will likely fluctuate greatly. High schools use tons of these heat-plates which should be accurate enough.

If that isn't the problem then is the problem getting getting a temperature high enough so expell the oil but not so high as to burn the wood?

I was tossing ideas around and thought about putting the bowls a crock-pot (SP?) filled with salt or sand to absorb the oils. If the bowl is only rough shaped then any particles stuck to the bowl could be removed during final shaping.

Have you experienced the "impervious coating" to which A. Dunhill refered in his patent application?

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:16 am

I used two types of heaters, a laboratory hot plate fitted with copper pegs and a device called an immersion heater which has the heat elements running into a peg shape, with temperature control by a stat. Both exhibited the same problems - heat hot enough to expel oil burns the wood on prolonged exposure, and if you keep the heat low enough not to burn, the pipe doesn't "sweat". An interesting point that i've never even seen accounted for in the photo displays of oil curing is the shank - I found I could run a heated thin peg through the airhole and make the entire shank sweat a good deal of oil too, but this would stay in the wood if the pipe sat on a peg in the bowl. I don't know how it's done reliably on a commercial scale, but I'll be curious to read the results of your experiments.

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:14 pm

Trever,

Perhaps I remember wrong but I seem to recall that I read somewhere, either here or in an old forum, that you don't recommend using linseed oil because it doesn't evaporate. Yet, linseed oil comes up very frequently as an oil for oil curing pipes. Did you use raw "cold pressed" linseed oil or cooked "boiled" linseed oil. The raw stuff does evaporate so they add chemicals to the boiled so that it takes longer to evaporate(R. Bruce Hoadley Water and Wood Fine Woodworking Magazine,Fall 1976 4:20-24).

Do I remember wrong or am I missing something? I like the smell of it the raw stuff after it has dries(or soaked) into wood. I have a source of 10 year old raw linseed oil that very light and has a great nutty smell when it has dried onto test paper.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:33 pm

Actually, quite a lot of oils don't evaporate. I don't believe I've ever talked to anyone who used linseed oil in oil curing, however. I tried both, raw and boiled, with pretty overly-intense results IIRC (it's been a few years). One consistent thing I found is that the stronger the oil smells, the nastier the pipe will smoke - it was pretty much a case where, if I could smell the oil at all, the pipe would be hideous. I can suggest a very simple way of testing, however - simple soak a pipecleaner in your chosen oil and run it through the airhole of a drilled stummel. Let it dry and smoke. It's an easy way to get a feel for what an oil tastes like when heated and smoked.

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:14 pm

Trever,

Thanks for that advice. I was trying to figure out a way of testing oils that would allow for quick experimentation and testing. I haven't started on the "heating pegs" yet. Therefore, I have bee limited to baking and air drying treated a bowls. That hint of your's should save me a good amount of grief!

Brendhain · Post by **Brendhain** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:14 am

A cob sounds ideal for testing. Neutral flavor and cheap.

But Trever...can you help me with something....20,000 stummels to experiment on!!!! How did you get that? Did you, and 20 of your friends, perform a midnight raid on the BC factory??? Where do you put them all?