Intent verse Result

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.

[pipedreamer]

You would not do too well with a jazz musician.What is produced by the Forum is greater than the sum total of its' members.My Question is what is perfect that is by the hand of man.Every group has its' stars,some shine bright,some are of different makeup and appear less bright ,yet shine.It's a process that folds in on itself , then expands.That is how we get better.On an island , with a poor piece of briar, what would you do? Get arty and refuse to work, or do the best you can, improvising to express what you can with what you have.Lets add, no critique will follow.Chances are you would refine and refine till you were satisfied.If you do nothing, you probably aren't a pipe carver.
the pipe presented is well done, even with the flaws and not by the book.All this is my opinion only.Yak stirred up these thoughts.I love his comments, many are thought provoking.Great duct tape.

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.

[d.huber]

That level of intensity needs to ebb and flow, if it doesn't you'll end up mailing your ear to a girl.

Fair enough. But that presupposes an inadequate technical mastery. No ?

IMO, no. It indicates pursuing perfection to the point of torturing one's self. Perfection is a great pursuit but is unobtainable. Knowing how far to go before you accept the flaws that you can still see is a part of mastery. If you're unable to accept that you will always see flaws in your own work, no matter how good it is, you'll wind up mailing your ear to a girl.

Great reference, btw.

Bach never halfassed anything he wrote.

I believe that. Doesn't mean he couldn't see flaws when he was done.

[Literaryworkshop]

There are great artists in both camps. Shakespeare has maybe a dozen plays out of the 30-some he wrote that get performed on a regular basis, and there's a reason you almost never see the rest produced. He was writing 2-3 plays a year at his height, plus managing his own theater company, and there are flaws in even his best plays. Virgil, on the other hand, wrote a small body of work and one epic (the Aeneid), which he wanted destroyed after his death because he hadn't finished revising it. The emperor wisely refused his request. Both are still read and admired today, but for different reasons.

The pragmatist and the idealist--an artist who chooses one approach will usually scorn an artist who picks the other. Myself, I'm a pragmatist. I think it's a fun challenge to work around flaws in the material, and I love the improvisational part of shaping and even sanding pipes. Sometimes I will use flawed materials on purpose, just to see if I can get away with using something that nobody else would touch. I want to make better pipes than I do, but I have to be honest with myself that I will probably never make a $300 pipe, let alone a $1000 pipe, at least not with that approach. I suppose if I really buckled down, mastered a lot of techniques, procured high-quality tooling and materials, and focused utterly on learning the nuances of the craft, I could get there. But putting that kind of pressure on myself would drain all the enjoyment from the process, and I would eventually quit in despair.

It's a personality thing, I suppose. Some people are just driven to perfection in certain areas, and if they take on the task at all, they'll kill themselves to get it right every time. Not doing so would kill them faster. It's an inner compulsion that you can't argue out of a person. I have a lot of admiration for such idealists, but I'm not one of them, at least not when it comes to making pipes.

[RadDavis]

I want to make better pipes than I do, but I have to be honest with myself that I will probably never make a $300 pipe, let alone a $1000 pipe

I have a lot of admiration for such idealists, but I'm not one of them, at least not when it comes to making pipes.

I thought the same thing about myself when I started.

Rad

[Tyler]

I want to make better pipes than I do, but I have to be honest with myself that I will probably never make a $300 pipe, let alone a $1000 pipe

I have a lot of admiration for such idealists, but I'm not one of them, at least not when it comes to making pipes.

I thought the same thing about myself when I started.

Rad

I thought that about Rad too.

[pipedreamer]

John Coltraine, or any other great jazz musician doesn't have to write it down YAK. I sold a pipe for 300.00, I just said Thank you.No idealism to it, just a lot of hard work.That I like.So I'll keep working hard.I think we innately know when a pipe is good or bad.Many lie to themselves, it's in human nature.Our mission, if we dare to take it, is to overcome our base nature.Then create what is acceptable to our higher self.

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.

[pipedreamer]

Jazz is different than rock and roll.I use to listen to Fritz krisler and yasha heifitz and felt they were almost identical.But there was a difference. One had to practice 7 hours a day to sound the same.(forgive my spelling of past masters)The point is with a burning desire, you can succeed.The basics have to be there,but then, give it hell. On heathen devil weed,no comment, my phone is tapped.

[Literaryworkshop]

Jazz and pot have been synonymous for 100 years . . .

Poetry and alcohol have been synonymous for 3000 years. What's your point?

I'm pretty sure that by "artist," we don't mean "hack artist" or even "bad artist." We mean "good artist." That is, somebody who, through some level of inner compulsion, pursues the making of objects that involve aesthetic judgment as well as technical mastery--somebody who pursues excellence for the sake of the thing itself. There are musicians in all genres who fit this category, and more popular musicians than we might think. Bach and Mozart, certainly, but also Benny Goodman and Bob Dylan.

There are pipe makers who are bad artists. Their pipes are hardly recognizable as pipes and are usually overpriced, but not many people buy them because only their makers think they look good. The musical equivalent is the guy with a guitar in the coffee shop who never bothered to learn his scales but is convinced that he is just one more song away from super-stardom. His arrogance is obnoxious and depressing in turn.

There are plenty of pipe makers who are hack artists. I see their pipe-shaped objects selling for $30-$50 on Etsy all the time. The musical equivalent might be the sentimental songwriter who churns out mediocre tunes to fill up empty space on albums. Or the writer of advertising jingles. For the hack, there's little or no regard for the integrity of the work itself; he works out of economic necessity only. Quantity and marketability are the only meaningful criteria for success.

There are also craftspeople, for whom I have a good deal of respect. They have mastered the fundamentals of their trade, and they excel at producing reliably decent work that is usually rougher and plainer (and therefore cheaper) than the work of an artist. Their work is predictable and functional, and usually produced with an eye for economy. When the craftsman says "good enough," he means it. He has clear thresholds for acceptable quality, and he does not bother with anything beyond them. Think about people who write background music for movies and TV shows here. The music has to evoke certain moods without drawing attention to itself. As music, it may be technically quite good, but there's almost never anything artistically remarkable about it. And, of course, the music is not there for its own sake; it's there to contribute to the overall effect of the scene. Aesthetic concerns are balanced by questions of function and economy.

That is the kind of pipe maker that I am trying to be, and I hope I can get there. After that, who knows?

[wisemanpipes]

Jazz and pot have been synonymous for 100 years . . .

There are pipe makers who are bad artists. Their pipes are hardly recognizable as pipes and are usually overpriced, but not many people buy them because only their makers think they look good.

You'd be horrified what people consider good pipes on Social media sites. It doesn't matter, most people think artisan pipes are the bees knees and a lot of hacks are making pipes because of it. not only making pipes, but selling them at high prices that people gobble up.

Its pretty sad...

[LatakiaLover]

You'd be horrified what people consider good pipes on Social media sites. It doesn't matter, most people think artisan pipes are the bees knees and a lot of hacks are making pipes because of it. not only making pipes, but selling them at high prices that people gobble up.

Its pretty sad...

It's pretty good, actually. Many of the people who buy them will become dissatisfied as their eye and taste become more developed, and they'll start looking around for something better.

Low quality is what people need to get started on the road to refinement.

[The Smoking Yeti]

You'd be horrified what people consider good pipes on Social media sites. It doesn't matter, most people think artisan pipes are the bees knees and a lot of hacks are making pipes because of it. not only making pipes, but selling them at high prices that people gobble up.

Its pretty sad...

The stem work says it all.

[LatakiaLover]

The stem work says it all.

I have yet to see that NOT be the case.

[wisemanpipes]

You'd be horrified what people consider good pipes on Social media sites. It doesn't matter, most people think artisan pipes are the bees knees and a lot of hacks are making pipes because of it. not only making pipes, but selling them at high prices that people gobble up.

Its pretty sad...

It's pretty good, actually. Many of the people who buy them will become dissatisfied as their eye and taste become more developed, and they'll start looking around for something better.

Low quality is what people need to get started on the road to refinement.

So very true! excellent perspective.

[pipedreamer]

Literary workshop on the money with the exception of Mancini.The stem remarks on the money, literally, it's 50% of the pipe.imho.

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.

[AldenW]

Meh. (Sorry, Rad). You don't need to be drinking (or a drinker) to appreciate poetry. But jazz has been music of the stoners, by the stoners, for the stoners from day one. A lot of it doesn't get across any other way.

Fair sized chunk of arrogance/ignorance right there. I'm a professional musician who trained in a jazz community. There are stoners, sure, but no more than in any other academic setting. Far fewer than in some.

Jazz is music by musicians, for musicians. That I will agree to.

[Yak]

Deleted as irrelevant.