Aesthetics...100% subjective?

alexanderfrese · Post by **alexanderfrese** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:43 am

Yep, Tschichold's life and work is a good example for the process that lies underneath many thoughts in this thread (even the shift in the perception of what is true), but I fear that we should not turn this discussion into an introductionary course in typography.

Tschichold really is a must in this field. For a pipemaker, the definite inspiration to be taken from him might only be valuable if making a pipe stamp. I remember a discussion on that subject we had here.
But in principle, yes again, perfect example.

Uhm, and just to add another small piece of knowledge to my understanding of the English (here American) language:

Colorado is the place your freaks do gather? And they all live in those trailers somewhere along the mountainside?

:dunno:

bvartist · Post by **bvartist** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:10 am

alexanderfrese wrote:Uhm, and just to add another small piece of knowledge to my understanding of the English (here American) language:

Colorado is the place your freaks do gather? And they all live in those trailers somewhere along the mountainside?

:dunno:

I can't comment on whether or not our freaks gather in Colorado now. But 42 years ago when I was born in Colorado, my parents lived in a mountainside trailer. My father was the foreman on the cattle ranch of the Governer of the state at the time, and my mother stayed at home to raise my sister and I. I don't think of my parents as freaks. They were just living where they had to at the time.

Apparently people may have different views now! :dunno:

David

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:19 am

Colorado is the place your freaks do gather? And they all live in those trailers somewhere along the mountainside?

That was a reference to Random, the former pipe maker who lives in a trailer on a Colorado mountainside and made nonconformist pipes in a Step Van powered powered by a generator.

They did not sell well.

Rad

alexanderfrese · Post by **alexanderfrese** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:24 am

RadDavis wrote:…snip They did not sell well. snip…

Ah, I see, an internal joke, no specific state bashing…

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:06 pm

alexanderfrese wrote:
RadDavis wrote:
…snip They did not sell well. snip…
Ah, I see, an internal joke, no specific state bashing…

No state bashing at all. I love Colorado, and there are likely more trailers in my home state of South Carolina than anywhere in the west. And, as Rad said, my point was only that there are pitfalls to despising the norms and those who master/appreciate them. As a craftsman it can lead to financial ruin. That's all.

Todd

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:42 pm

RadDavis wrote:That was a reference to Random, the former pipe maker who lives in a trailer on a Colorado mountainside and made nonconformist pipes in a Step Van powered powered by a generator.

Former? It was only a month or so ago that I saw him posting a new one to ASP, wasn't it? Did he get pissed off at someone and decide to quit?

obie · Post by **obie** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:22 pm

ToddJohnson wrote:...And, as Rad said, my point was only that there are pitfalls to despising the norms and those who master/appreciate them. As a craftsman it can lead to financial ruin...

And a painfully misplaced superiority complex.

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:39 pm

Former? It was only a month or so ago that I saw him posting a new one to ASP, wasn't it? Did he get pissed off at someone and decide to quit?

Yes, Random has officially quit.

Again.

Rad

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:45 pm

I should amend that last statement.

From Random's latest blog post:

"Bottom line is, more pipes will probably be forthcoming, sometime that probably doesn't qualify as "soon", and they will be more costly than in the past."

It's official. He may be back at some point. So, who the fuck knows? :dunno:

Rad

mahaffy · Post by **mahaffy** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:27 am

An amazingly homogenous bunch! Quite similar in a multitude of talents and interests, very good with words. . . . Surprised that my long-ago pet, used as part of my master's, the right-brain/left-brain concept didn't find its way into the discussion. We "recognize" on a non-verbal, almost instinctive level things that match images in a welther of stored data --- and get a "gut reaction" of like/dislike. Trick is to enourage BOTH sides of the brain to see (hear, taste, whatever) --- to get some communication going between the two. (Normally, the right side simply leaves little post-its that the left side may peruse or not.) Anyway, it's a fun and interesting topic; thanks for an interesting evening.

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:04 am

Wow how on earth did I miss this thread? Is it indeed done?

alexanderfrese · Post by **alexanderfrese** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:07 am

ArtGuy wrote:Wow how on earth did I miss this thread? Is it indeed done?

After all, it's plain ole "de gustibus non est disputandum".

Throw in some thoughts, and we'll carry on…

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:14 am

I need to read through to make sure I don't repeat anything already said several times. That and I am not nearly caffinated enough just yet.

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:49 am

My short answer to the question posed in Tyler's original post would be, "No aesthetics is not 100% subjective.” Is aesthetics 100% objective? Of course not. We all have certain sensitivities to different things and that cannot help but influence our interpretation of an object. However, there are certain elements of design that can be judged as to thier effectiveness in making an attractive object.

A little bit of aesthetics according to Crosby:

Aesthetics generally deals with how line, shape, color, texture and proportion are used to manipulate the viewer’s eye as it is lead along a piece. I do not so much think of these things as rules but more as tools that can be used to come up with the effect needed.

The eye moves differently along harsh angular lines, compared to flat, straight lines, or smooth, curved lines. As the eye scans across the pipe its' movement is also effected by differences in texture (sandblast, rusticated, smooth etc.) materials (exotic wood adornment), and changes in color. These are all things that need to be taken into consideration. You add to this proportion, and there you have the difficulty in making an attractive object with a degree of visual unity. For an example of this consider the difference in looking at this Tokutomi:

versus this Barbi:

Both are well executed pipes that use the elements of line, shape, color, texture and proportion in very different ways to create a unified whole that works.

When a balance between these elements is lacking, it is then that you end up with what is referred to as clumsy, bulky and amateurish. This is the problem we face with poor craftsmanship as it affects this balance even if the tools are used well. Hence the reason crisp craft is fundamentally most important above all.

It is the ability to carefully balance those fundamental elements of design that separates beautiful pipes from those that are not as nice. Those are elements that in large part can be judged in a relatively (i.e. not 100%) objective fashion. They can either work together to make a unified whole that is beatiful to look at or they can come together to make a clumsy, awkward pipe that looks as though it is made up of spare parts.

obie · Post by **obie** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:40 pm

Nicely put. Thanks John!

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:56 pm

I think part of what we may be talking about are standards of beauty in pipemaking (i.e. how effectively the design elements are being used) and if one must adhere to such things. There are those who are resistant to accepting that such standards even exist, however that does not affect the fact that they do.

As Todd mentioned earlier, in a craft such as pipemaking your intentions do not mean much at all to the viewer (nor should they). What matters is the reaction you're getting and what is it that you have accomplished. I can talk all day about this wonderful pipe I intended to make. If the end result is a compromised version of said wonderful pipe then I have to have the courage to accept that I need to do better. My being able to imagine an idea and implement that very thing in briar is when I know I am really getting somewhere as a pipemaker.

We all know when it is that we have compromised our initial idea. We like to talk about how "the wood just would not coperate" or how we "decided at that point to start following the grain" If we are honest with ourselves, many times it is our own limitations or choices that have prevented us from coming up with the exact pipe we wanted and not the fault of the wood.

I deal with similar things in art classes. On occasion, I teach foundation drawing classes at a private art academy where the instruction is based on the 19th Century European Atelier system. For those who aren't familiar, this mean old school drawing from direct observation with the subject usually being a plaster cast or nude model. It is very academic old masters type of stuff.

Anyhow, each semester there is one first year drawing student putting forth the case that their drawing is "expressive" and going on and on about this wonderful idea that inspired them to deviate from the model. After they finish I tell them that it is merely sloppy and to quit making excuses for not working towards decent draftsmanship.

Then I go into my whole line about how in order to express an idea you must first know how to speak (in this case by drawing) and right now, being first year drawing students, they are all speaking gibberish. Once they can demonstrate the ability to speak then they can talk to me about their feelings and ideas. Until then I do not want to hear any excuses for sloppy work.

The student who prompts this speech is usually one who was the best in whatever high school class they came from and had some hippy mom instructor who encouraged them to "explore their feelings" and not much else. This same student is also the one that usually ends up improving their skills much further than they ever thought they could. If nothing else it gives them stories to tell about this short, chubby jackass who did nothing but drink coffee and tell them how bad their drawings were.

obie · Post by **obie** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:11 pm

Man, that reminds me how much I still need to learn to draw.

I wonder how this issue figures into the whole 'self-esteem' movement - the idea that anything I do is good enough just by nature of the fact that I did it - and the lack of direct competition and hard criticism. My best work comes when I'm most subject to external criticism, but I'm always afraid of putting myself in that position because it sucks to get prodded like that.

It's way too easy to be way too easy on ourselves...

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:07 pm

Obie, isn't the creed of the graphic designer:

1. Never draw when you can trace
2. Never trace when you can copy
3. Never copy when you can cut and paste.

ArtGuy · Post by **ArtGuy** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:12 pm

Getting back to your point, it is indeed easy to be easy on ourselves and you cannot be harsh all the time. I think it is fine to like what you have done. However, having someone that you can trust tell you what you can improve upon is a very valuable thing. I have also found that having non-pipemaker types who know something about aesthetics and design are very good people to have critique a pipe. If all else fails I show them to my 6 year old. She thinks they are all really cool. :thumb:

obie · Post by **obie** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:08 pm

ArtGuy wrote:Obie, isn't the creed of the graphic designer:

1. Never draw when you can trace
2. Never trace when you can copy
3. Never copy when you can cut and paste.

Hey, that's what clip art is for, right?

You just gotta love the uneasy conjunction of art and commerce.

I completely agree that you can't be harsh all the time. It's all a process of growth, and it comes a step at a time, so the breaks in between the criticism are crucial. At the same time, I find it really easy to get lazy and let up on myself way too early... and that's when I dodge criticism the most, cause I already know I haven't succeeded.