Intent verse Result

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d.huber
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by d.huber »

Yak wrote:A sense of history more than arrogance -- except to the extent that anyone can call anybody else "arrogant" for having a different perspective (consequently, scale of values).
It's important to note that your original statement was presented as fact instead of perspective.
Yak wrote:But jazz has been music of the stoners, by the stoners, for the stoners from day one.
If it's just your opinion, opine away! Just remember to state that this is so. :)
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d.huber
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by d.huber »

BTW, this latest exchange is another great example of intent vs. result. We're still on topic!
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by LatakiaLover »

UberHuberMan wrote: If it's just your opinion, opine away! Just remember to state that this is so. :)
It's much more clear---never mind more efficient for the writer---to assume the opposite, you realize. That what someone says can be safely assumed to be opinion unless stated/labelled as fact.

Think that one through thoroughly before responding.

[waiting... waiting...]

See? MUCH clearer, MUCH more efficient.

Doing so would also eliminate about 95% of the disagreements on this forum (or any other) that aren't actually disagreements about the subject being discussed at all, but merely someone being upset with someone else for "stating opinion as fact" in the course of the discussion.
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by Yak »

Deleted as irrelevant.
Last edited by Yak on Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sasquatch
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by Sasquatch »

Half a bee, philosophically, must ipso facto half not be, but half the bee has got to be, viz-a-viz its entity, you see?
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RadDavis
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by RadDavis »

Yak wrote:
Do you guys really want to play with this kind of _____________ ?
No.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by LatakiaLover »

Yak, you and I have been down that road before, years ago. (<--- fact)

It isn't one the PM forum would appreciate getting mired in. (<--- opinion)

(Well, maybe Sas, because he's not only a philosophy geek but an accommodating, mild-mannered Canadisian) (<--- half fact, half bullshit)
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by d.huber »

Yak wrote:An excellent observation. IMO. Except for one detail :

Consider George Orwell explaining Doublethink, long and deeply : “To know and to not know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy is impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy. To forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself.”
I knew an actor once who pursued his medium through this very ideal. Brilliant guy. I think this is also an excellent way to pursue participation in life, being "in the moment" so to speak. A person could spend their entire life trying to perfect it.
Yak wrote:If I were to announce that this entire board, and everybody on it, existed only as a personal hypothesis on my part, through a variety of pseudocertainty (as when I am confident enough that I will be alive tomorrow to plan for it), you would laugh.
I would not laugh, because there is no certainty that the things outside ourselves exist as anything other than a pure manifestation of our own minds. IMO. :P
Yak wrote:Do you guys really want to play with this kind of _____________ ?
Sure! I think this kind of thinking is great brain exercise. Although, I have no formal philosophy education, which will likely result in my getting in deep over my head quickly.

Also, an argument well made. However, if one were to assume, for the sake of argument, that you were not completely alone in a construct of your own mind and that other people actual exist, we have to acknowledge that this argument leaves them out.

Including others in our definition of reality and in the interest of continuing this specific line of discussion, people react a fairly predictable way to a large array of stimulus and, in this instance, communication styles. George makes a point about it being the listener's responsibility to assume that the speaker communicates without malice or definity (new word?). It is my opinion that both the speaker and the listener must be willing to adjust how they're communicating and how they're listening in an effort to achieve understanding. I've found that if one or both are unwilling to adjust, all communication is likely to crumble.

None of that matters in a vacuum, but assuming that reality is real, it can and frequently does make the difference between a positive interaction and a negative one. At least, in my experience. :)
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by Yak »

Deleted as irrelevant.
Last edited by Yak on Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by d.huber »

Yak wrote:Better ?
To use the vernacular: Like "whoa" better. Thanks!

Interesting and compelling, IMO. ;)
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by LatakiaLover »

Looks like I was wrong, Yak. (<--- opinion)

Carry on. :lol: (<--- apologetic suggestion)
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by Yak »

Deleted as irrelevant.
Last edited by Yak on Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by d.huber »

Yak wrote:Yo, LL --
William Blake wrote:Always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you.
A steady diet of sweet agreement would bore the daylights out of anybody after a while. :lol:
And that's a fact! :lol:
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by LatakiaLover »

UberHuberMan wrote:
Yak wrote:Yo, LL --
William Blake wrote:Always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you.
A steady diet of sweet agreement would bore the daylights out of anybody after a while. :lol:
And that's a fact! :lol:
No, it isn't.

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e Markle
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by e Markle »

LatakiaLover wrote: No, it isn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c
In the spirit of your link:
Yes, it is!
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by AldenW »

Yak wrote:
jazz has been music of the stoners, by the stoners, for the stoners from day one . . . A sense of history more than arrogance
In purely historical terms, from William Randolph Hearst's campaign to outlaw hemp (after realising he'd be taking a multi-million dollar bath on his investment in Northern Mexican newspaper pulpwood & railroad if the recently-developed hemp process gained traction for newsprint) on up through the late 1960s/1970s when it generalised into the "popular" music field and beyond (now, mover-&-shaker guests pulling out doobs & lighting up after dessert is the burning social etiquette problem at Washington DC dinner parties), the correlation of pot and jazz was 1:1.

What the academics & Berklee types have made of it since Miles Davis and John Coltrane checked out, I don't know. But historically, if you were visiting a strange city, the one place there you knew you could score was in a jazz club. 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s. Jazzers were the sociological matrix of pot, and vice versa. (Also, unfortunately, of heroin).

As to whether "Jazz Music" is or is not an oxymoron, in my OPINION (informed by history), it is one.

Better ?
Better, still not great. I'm not asking you to like the music; hell, I'm not crazy about most jazz. That said, please avoid negatively generalizing other people's career and artistic choices based on your own preconceptions. A good chunk of the hardest working people I know are jazz musicians; the stoner stereotype is something you're bringing to the table. Accusing it of being too intellectual would probably be closer to the mark.
There's a big difference between saying jazz has a historical tie to drug culture (as does most forms of art) and dismissing it as 'by stoners, for stoners'. Saying jazz isn't music is not 'informed by history'.

Sorry to everyone else, this just hit a nerve. I know it's off topic, and I'm normally a lurker not a poster so I'll just go back to looking at pretty pipe pictures.
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by LatakiaLover »

AldenW wrote:...this just hit a nerve.
No, it didn't.
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by pipedreamer »

Yak, I started out my early days as a jazz musician.I also played under the baton of feidler
(boston symp.) It took 10 years of training.I've played for presidents, Kings. and Queens and the oldest ruling Monarch at that time. I will be kind.YOU ARE NOT CORRECT!
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Re: Intent verse Result

Post by Yak »

Deleted as irrelevant.
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