The current state of this forum

[LatakiaLover]

...but sometimes it isn't the answer that counts, it's the connection, the conversation, the dialogue that matters.

Now THAT is the most insightful thing yet said in this thread.

Powerful enough to win the argument all by itself.

I now stand convinced that a longer view of how to interact with board newcomers is both necessary and the Right Thing To Do.

I'll try to keep it in mind when answering their questions.

[seamonster]

...but sometimes it isn't the answer that counts, it's the connection, the conversation, the dialogue that matters.

Now THAT is the most insightful thing yet said in this thread.

Powerful enough to win the argument all by itself.

I now stand convinced that a longer view of how to interact with board newcomers is both necessary and the Right Thing To Do.

I'll try to keep it in mind when answering their questions.

Pleased to meet you, George. My name is Jeremy. I'd like to learn a few things from you. Maybe have a few things to show myself.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[mredmond]

Well, that went downhill quickly. I think Tyler's post was spot on and the progress of this thread pretty much proves his point. Unfortunately, it won't make much of a difference without a little self-reflection and behavior adjustment from forum members. Do with that what you will.

[LatakiaLover]

Well, that went downhill quickly. I think Tyler's post was spot on and the progress of this thread pretty much proves his point.

No, his point---that a decline in forum activity was the result of a local, specific reason---was merely asserted, not proved. Plus, it was an especially problematic claim given that forum interest and participation has been in decline for years across the entire Internet, regardless of subject.

THAT'S the reason the thread progressed the way it did.

Had he just said, "Hey! Listen up! I run this place, and I want y'all to stop scarin' away potential new guys," all would have been well.

[mredmond]

All would have also been well if it was accepted that maybe Tyler's point is a significant part of the problem and that maybe internet trends, in general, don't affect all small, niche communities the same way. Statistics are easy to find and contextualize to prove one's point, grind one's axe, etc. Tyler did pretty much say what you said he should have. At least that's how I read "I guess stop being an ass" and "treat others like you'd like to be treated."

[LatakiaLover]

All would have also been well if it was accepted that maybe... [etc.]

Much easier to simply say exactly what you mean, don't you think? Then intent, digression, challenges to assertions, and so forth never enter the picture.

[d.huber]

George, I love you, man. Please let it lay. Whether or not anyone worded something perfectly in this instance is unimportant. The spirit of what Tyler had to say is essentially the same as what you wanted him to say.

In order for new guys to want to come to this forum to learn and participate, we need to be welcoming. I think we can all agree to that.

[sparkyspipes]

I hope I am not overstepping here as I have not been that involved in the forum.

What I have heard personally from many people myself is exactly what Tyler was saying with one addition, that kind of showed itself in this post.
It has been stated that guys feel unwelcome due to the first reaction from members (assuming that they are referring to the first real in-depth conversation on the forums) and the the loss of topic due to a focus on a word of phrase that is taken out of context and instead argued on exact definition of wordage used.

It is hard at times to give the same tip or instruction over and over again.

If I may give a suggestion.
You guys have a lot of members, the senior members here are friends and talk on a regular basis as I understand it, why not break it up to teams with the season guys and have them take a week at a time or just taking turns if you will doing the questions or critiques so no one gets burned out?

This is a forum by name but yet goes far beyond that definition, whether it is viewed as such or not you guys are running a school of pipe making by teaching new guys the trade. I think any teacher will tell you a break from the constant incoming questions from time to time (School breaks lol) can be a good thing for any instructor to refresh the love and drive for instructing students.

Again, not trying to start anything here at all, but I though you all might want a more third party view.
scott

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

A lot of the information that is sought by new members IS available in the archives. I think I could have gained all the information needed to make pipes by reading the back log of posts using the search function. Possibly another reason in the decline is the fact that you don't need to be a member to read that information. You can browse the info as a guest, which I did for about a year before even joining. The “pipe turd" thread shows that people are watching through the window rather than knocking on the door to join the party. I feel a lot of the guys that have been making pipes for 10 years are ready to move on from critiques and helpful tips, they did their time and Its the newer generation, the Hubers and Scotties, nates and sandahls that will carry on in the future.

[LatakiaLover]

George, I love you, man. Please let it lay. Whether or not anyone worded something perfectly in this instance is unimportant. The spirit of what Tyler had to say is essentially the same as what you wanted him to say.

The funny bit is that in the course of the thread, the importance of "wording something perfectly" could not be better illustrated.

I admire Tyler very much for many reasons, chief among them his astonishing generousness of spirit when dealing with people who live in difficult circumstances and have an entirely different worldview. Whatever the opposite of judgmental is, that's Tyler. And it's not just lip service... he's "been there, done that" and put his money where his mouth is in a wholly immersive way.

But when I suggested in passing that that spirit was what moved him to make the "state of the board" post that started this thread, it was interpreted as an insult. Why? Because I didn't "word it perfectly", and words are ALL a written forum has. Had I said the same thing in person, he most likely would have only held up a hand stopping the exchange for a second and asked for clarification. I would have given it (probably referring to the Uganda conversation we'd had last year), he'd have relaxed, satisfied that he understood what I MEANT, and we'd have seamlessly moved on.

Had Sandahl not explained the contextual subtleties of the word "guilt" to someone who was once a pastor, I'd have remained mystified for the rest of my days about what the hell had happened.

And I'm as careful and precise with language as anyone you're likely to meet.

In fact, I suspect that the across-the-Internet decline in forum interest has more to do with the sort of incident I just described than anything else. Real time, multi-source, simultaneous written communication is fractal in nature. Everyone interprets what everyone else says slightly differently, and when disagreements or perceived insults occur, the subsequent explanations are interpreted slightly differently still again, and then again with still more people joining in, and on and on it goes, until collective frustration and/or exhaustion puts an end to it.

Until the next time. Because that's the nature of it.

It's no wonder that people start abandoning such a thing when alternatives become available.

Here's a visual example of fractal branching for anyone who's unfamiliar with how it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gruJ0S3TTtI

In order for new guys to want to come to this forum to learn and participate, we need to be welcoming. I think we can all agree to that.

Agreed. Seamonster said it best.

[finster]

I can only speak for myself as a new member, but I can honestly say that I never had an interest in joining a forum of any kind until I stumbled upon PMF back in March. Hope it keeps going strong.

[Sasquatch]

Sparky wrote: "you guys are running a school of pipe making by teaching new guys the trade"

This is true as far as I can tell. Things being passed from person to person, down through "the ages". There IS a school of thought here, this is the American/ Danish Handmade school's e-location. There are other pipe makers doing other things.... successfully. If you can believe it!


I agree with Tyler's post, told him I thought the forum's current trends were negative for content and culture.


Not every thread has to be a pissing contest, a running joke, or a offensive in some way.


If people like Armentrout can't be bothered, or feel uncomfortable, or like they are wasting time to contribute here, that's bad. Period.

I'm in: I will post professional advice as best I can, I will leave off the banter and the crony-ism.

There's lots of reasons activity is down, path-of-least-resistance leads people elsewhere. And that's fine, but we can at least not actively chase people away.

[seamonster]

I'm in: I will post professional advice as best I can,

Awesome! I always appreciate when you weigh in. Your way of explaining something is direct, clear, and straight to the point, no mamby-pamby...

I will leave off the banter and the crony-ism.

Well, hopefully not altogether.... the BS-ing is fun, and I'm sure a draw for a lot of folks, particular the folks who've been around a while. I think it's helpful to know WHO you can bust balls with, (because you have a relationship, some history with them, they know where you are coming from, they can assume best intentions) and who you can't (yet) because you don't have those thing established (yet).


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[LatakiaLover]

...but we can at least not actively chase people away.

Being a stealthy, 900 pound, eight-foot-tall, prehistoric hominid with fangs who lives in a cave and eats errant human hikers like granola bars, the sincerity of your statement is certain, Sas. The purity of your motivation in making it, however, is suspect.

[sandahlpipe]

...but we can at least not actively chase people away.

Being a stealthy, 900 pound, eight-foot-tall, prehistoric hominid with fangs who lives in a cave and eats errant human hikers like granola bars, the sincerity of your statement is certain, Sas. The purity of your motivation in making it, however, is suspect.

This is the kind of thing that keeps my wife interested in the forum even though she doesn't even smoke a pipe. I read these gems to her and we laugh together. Perhaps we need to devote a section of the forum for quotes like these.

[e Markle]

Another issue I see is the reliance on the back catalog for information. I've been here for a year and a half, and I've read over and over "you can find the answer to the question you just asked by searching the archives.". this happens so often that many posts start with " I've searched the archives, but can't find the answer to this question:... " I think what this really means is "I'm looking for a conversation, some dialogue, some sense of community with real people. I don't want to spend my evening with the search box..."

Your post certainly makes sense, and I'd guess it does feel frustrating to get some canned response. That said, I'd hope the intention on the part of the respondent is clear as well: in many cases we have answered the same question literally hundreds of times. Not all of us are looking for the same specific type of interaction/connection -- not that we don't want that at all just that we may not be searching for a meaningful connection with someone over how to insert a delrin tenon. I'm not sure that I have a solution here, but I am hoping for understanding.

To be honest, if you're looking for community, you might be better off trying to join one of the google chats.

[Sasquatch]

Canned responses are not a huge problem. Saying someone's question is "the stupidest thing ever written" is. 3 god damn pages of bullshit people have to wade through and STILL not find an answer to a question? Or because of all the crap have no idea which of 10 answers might be best? This forum isn't useful for newbies. It isn't friendly, it isn't clever, and it isn't worth their time. So what the fuck is it for, just for us to laugh at Alden? I have facebook for that.

We're practically hazing. It's not helpful.


Now, I've written honest stuff, direct stuff, even nasty ass stuff on this board. But it's never been anything but "hey new guy, here's your info, it's the same info other better pipe makers gave me". For the new guy. I write all kinds of opinion, and frankly all kinds of total crap, but I truly haven't AIMED any of it at that scared dude in the corner. But every thread now runs away with all kinds of useless garbage because we like, as a group, to give each other a hard time. But it's coming off wrong, it's a dis-service to the board.

There's been some good discussion (about bent-ness, for example) but the new guy has no idea how to dig the info out of that thread (for example) because it's couched in nonsense, abuse, and pointless narrative. We took a perfectly good thread about an excellent pipe (your thread, Ernie, a year or so ago, about the perfect pipe) and blew it into a stupid discussion about linguistic usage. To what end? To enjoy each other's company, I guess, but not to HELP anyone, not to flesh anything out for someone who doesn't understand some of this stuff.

I'm with Tyler on this, in fact I'm one of the ones who put a bug in his ear.

[e Markle]

3 god damn pages of bullshit people have to wade through and STILL not find an answer to a question?

That's a fair point, and in truth, I haven't used the search function in oh, probably 4 years so it was a bit foolish for me to respond. I retract my post above, and I do hope it wasn't taken negatively (except by Sas); just tryin' to help (for once!).

[seamonster]

3 god damn pages of bullshit people have to wade through and STILL not find an answer to a question?

That's a fair point, and in truth, I haven't used the search function in oh, probably 4 years so it was a bit foolish for me to respond. I retract my post above, and I do hope it wasn't taken negatively (except by Sas); just tryin' to help (for once!).

Ernie,
nope, didn't take your comment negatively at all. my original comment about wanting human interaction was really about a CERTAIN TYPE OF FORUM USER, not everyone. some folks here, sounds like Sas is one of them, wants to help folks, maybe pay it forward for help he got, once upon a time.... I think there are a lot of folks here that feel that way.... and then there are the type like Joe was pointing out... the serious students of the craft who are devouring the archives and committing them to memory, them there are the dudes just hanging out to shoot the shit.... the forum can be lots of things, and be accessed with many intents. Sounds like Tyler wants it to be a welcoming place where people can learn stuff without getting mud on the eye.... I'm looking for that too. And once I've been around a while, and people have gotten to know me, them there the manging about bit, busting balls, and what not.....

some guys are happy to answer the same question a hundred times... some aren't.
cool, and cool.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[mightysmurf8201]

Let's go forth and do good things. Btw, is there some kind of tutorial sticky that could teach new people how to use all the features of this forum? The search function on here really is a great tool, if you know how to use it, as is the bookmark function and all that other techie junk. I know it's not that complicated for most, but some people really do not get along well with computers. I am one of those people.
And for the record, I, for one, apologize if I have ever said anything offensive to anyone here, particularly the noobs looking for advice.