Alternative stains

[bscofield]

Has anyone ever tried using some sort of "alternative stains?" That's obviously a very broad stroak but what I'm talking about in general is something like: Coffee for brown, cranberry for red, etc.

Anyone ever experiment with this?

[munkey]

I have wondered about this as well, but haven't tried it yet.

The thing that got me thinking about it was a visit to a winery in Napa. They would top off the aging barrels of Cab to eliminate space for gasses to build up. Inevitably the barrels would get stains on them, so they started painting the whole middle section of the barrels with Cab so they wouldn't look splotchy and messy. The resulting color of the Cab on the oak was really quiet striking.

[ArtGuy]

I need to get Adam to join this forum... He has actually made stain from scratch using Walnuts and such.

[LexKY_Pipe]

I like the Cabernet idea myself. I believe that it would provide a rich color.

Here's the recipe I would use.

One glass to stain the pipe--two to for the pipe maker.

[NvilleDave]

Anyone seen the movie "Red Violin" with Samuel Jackson?

[ArtGuy]

Nope, in it, does he make a long profane speech just before bludgeoning
someone with a violin? If so, I am there :thumb:

[magruder]

You're a sick puppy, John.

BTW- I contacted Trudat. Bits on the way. Many thanx,
Steve

[NvilleDave]

Nope, in it, does he make a long profane speach just before bludgeoning
someone with a violin? If so, I am there :thumb:

Blood is used to stain the violin however the application method wasn't bludgeoing...

Sorry for your thread being highjacked Ben.

Dave

[LexKY_Pipe]

Trying the Cab Savignon on one now. Apply it with a soft cotton cloth. Letting it soak in really good. It will take several applications. Of course, it may be a real waste of Cab, but it will make a nice converstion piece. "How's your wine and pipe?"

[alexanderfrese]

Please let us know about the cab staining outcome.

I'm a bit unsure about it. All colouring pigments and substances are rather prone to chemical alteration by light and (to a lesser extent) oxygene. Alteration menas fading or even changing colour. Second if the colour of the whole thing is composed from pigments with different colours, and one is less stable than the others. Natural colour pigments are generally less stable than artificial/chemical. Those barrels mentioned above are stored in a wine cellar, which means they are under controlled temperature and under subdued lighting conditions, which reduces the impact of the light on that stain.
Since we have little chance to protect our pipes from light, there has to be some reliability on the stain about fading and changing colour.
The violin… The tint of fresh blood is rather interesting. But some dried drops look rather ugly. Blood sausage (I saw it beeing made fresh once) has a shillering colour when the substance is fresh and still liquid, nut turns into something rather unspectacular brownish later on.
As far as I remember from his website, Love Geiger is using rather uncommon stainings. Maybe he can share some of his experiences…

In several threads I was posting a question wether the stains in pipemaking are just adding colour pigments to the wood or if they are sort of tanning the wood. A tanning process would make a more stable staining since the added agent produces the colouring substance within the stained material by chemical interaction with the wood. No echo so far… :dunno:

[marks]

Once someone begins to smoke the pipe, the pipe will change colors over time. At least that has been my experience with my pipes, some I have had for 20 years. This is more visually pronounced in lighter stained pipes, but I believe it occurs in all of them, as even dark pipes take on an added patina over time.

While I am not a chemist, and I have not done any experimentation, I don't believe that the analine dyes used by most pipe makers are anything other than a pigment to color the wood. They are very susceptible to change by wiping, alcohol, water, etc. and require a top coat of some material, usually carnuba wax, to keep them from being altered until the ultimate customer purchases them. Even then, you can read posts on bulletin boards about the stain color bleeding, or coming off by people either using water, alcohol, or some other substance to clean their pipes.

As for other stains, I do not know. I have only used the analine dyes.

Ben, let us know how your experiments with Cabernet work out. You can get the Franzia Cabernet in a box for about $10 to $12 for a five liter box (maybe less if you catch it on sale). This seems pretty economical to me.

[ArtGuy]

You might try boiling down the wine to remove some of the water in it. It might make it more condenced and powerfull a stain.

There are certain colors of artist paints traditionaly made from pigments harvested from berries. The colors tend to be somwhat fugitive so it will be interesting to see how the color hold up on that pipe.

[alexanderfrese]

Anyway, the classic tanning takes place in leather processing. There's lots more going on than just chaning the colour. I still wonder if those leather stains often mentioned do something more than just adding pigment…

As for the vulnerability of staining: I practice a lot on reconditioning estates. I have done salt’n’alcohol, I've done a lot of wiping with alcohol. It never showed any effect until I soaked them in alcohol for hours and even days. This may be because the stain is aged (plus the darkening of the briar due to it's use as pipe-wood). Or do industrial manufacturers use staining, that is more stable?

BTW:

…snip… You can get the Franzia Cabernet in a box for about $10 to $12 for a five liter box (maybe less if you catch it on sale). This seems pretty economical to me.

Being european though not really a wine freak, it seems to me that the cost is very economical for 5 liters of stain. Though I would not really want to drink it. :naughty:

This does not say anything against your american wines. I have had some considerable tasty californian sips. But as said before, what do I know?

[sagiter]

Anyway, the classic tanning takes place in leather processing. There's lots more going on than just chaning the colour. I still wonder if those leather stains often mentioned do something more than just adding pigment…

Tanning leather and dying leather are two completely separate processes. A similar although not exact equivalent between the two would be the process of boiling, drying and otherwise getting briar ready for carving being the equivalent of tanning and the dying or staining of the pipe the equivalent of dyeing leather.

Neil

[alexanderfrese]

Sorry for any confusion. I am desperately seeking for the proper english phrases. But since they are pretty specific in certain technology, dictionaries are no help at all.

What I meant is surely not to tan the wood as a process comparable to the one animal skin undergoes becoming leather. Neil, you are probably the one most familiar with that here. All I found when researching basic principles of staining techniques (in German websites) was the classification in two kinds of staining: One that adds colour pigments and one that interacts with the stained material on a molecular basis "producing" the pigment in that process. Tanning processes were mentioned as an example for that second way. Though tanning in leather industry does lots more with the chemical structure than just changing colour. I know!

I just wondered, still do, if there is anything like that for wood, at least for the colouring… :dunno:

So it is called dyeing. Hmm. Maybe that might set someone on track for a new way of staining briar?

[alexanderfrese]

Just to add something I found about the two principles of staining/dyeing or what the heck…

All those pigment based stains give a "negative picture" since they sink into the softer parts of the wood. Soft wood = darker tone, hard wood = lighter tone. That's what we all know and use on our briar.

"Chemical Dyes" (that's what they called it on the german website) interacting with the tanning agents to build up coloured molecular structures make up a "positive picture" due to the higher content of the tanning agents in the hard wood parts. Soft wood = lighter tone, hard wood = darker tone.
That's what I am thinking about.

Still no hint within that site about the agents suitable for that chemical process.

[ArtGuy]

"Chemical Dyes" (that's what they called it on the german website) interacting with the tanning agents to build up coloured molecular structures make up a "positive picture" due to the higher content of the tanning agents in the hard wood parts. Soft wood = lighter tone, hard wood = darker tone.
That's what I am thinking about.
____________________________________________________________

That would explain why I have seen Eltang putting the black chemical stain on top of the lighter stain to get contrast. I wondered if I was seeing that correctly.

[JHowell]

"Chemical Dyes" (that's what they called it on the german website) interacting with the tanning agents to build up coloured molecular structures make up a "positive picture" due to the higher content of the tanning agents in the hard wood parts. Soft wood = lighter tone, hard wood = darker tone.
That's what I am thinking about.
____________________________________________________________

That would explain why I have seen Eltang putting the black chemical stain on top of the lighter stain to get contrast. I wondered if I was seeing that correctly.

But do Eltang's pipes really look like the reverse of normal staining? To my eye they don't, they just look like normal stain on steroids, like the dark parts are much more durably dark. I wonder if the sentence above refers to natural tannins in the wood -- which is interesting, but doesn't jibe with anything else I've heard about Eltang's stain, which, from discussions here, seems to have originated for the purpose of dyeing stone lab benches. My mother-in-law is a chemist; I keep meaning to ask her about this.

[ToddJohnson]

"Chemical Dyes" (that's what they called it on the german website) interacting with the tanning agents to build up coloured molecular structures make up a "positive picture" due to the higher content of the tanning agents in the hard wood parts. Soft wood = lighter tone, hard wood = darker tone.
That's what I am thinking about.
____________________________________________________________

That would explain why I have seen Eltang putting the black chemical stain on top of the lighter stain to get contrast. I wondered if I was seeing that correctly.

It's not a dark stain on top of a light stain. The stain consists of 2 parts, a base and a catalyst. Both are clear liquids (one tinted a bit blue and the other a bit yellow). You apply chemical A and then heat it. The pipe will turn splotchy yellow. You then apply chemical B and heat it (it's not flamable). It turns jet black at this point. Then you hit the pipe with the buffing wheel, just to knock off some of the color. Then the pipe is hand sanded with 400-600. The more porous grain retains the black color and the less porous grain gives it up. Once the pipe has been sanded a coat of yellow (i.e. "natural") French stain is applied. The process works no differently than any other contrast finish, it just creates sharper contrast. I haven't read the pages and pages of theory in this thread, but this comes from personal experience with lab stain. Tom's works a little differently than mine, but only nominally so.

Todd

[alexanderfrese]

Please Note:
I mixed up »positive« and »negative« in my posting above. The pigment based staining technique should be described as generating a positive grain pattern, since it strengthens the pattern that is already there.
So the chemical staining should be called »negative« since it reverses the grain pattern.

…snip I wonder if the sentence above refers to natural tannins in the wood …snip

I think yes! They refer to a term called »Gerbstoffe« (that brought me on the leather track since »gerben« is the german word for tanning (leather). The best translation I could find was tanning agents. But anyway it's a structure within the material to be coloured, not in the chemical applied to the wood. Only if the tanning agent and some chemical in the »stain« interact, they build a molecule that has a colour. To my understanding the tanning agents mentioned in the short article about dyeing/staining will most probably be the tannin in case of wood to be coloured. There may be of course other tanning agents in other materials that can be dyed/stained.

The process Todd describes at least seems to be of that »chemical« principle. The difference is, that his dyeing does not use the natural tanning agents within the briar, but adds some (agent A), that are undergoing several modifications by the heat applied and – the more important step – by interacting with agent B.

I am still collecting info on woodworkers’ sites. One mentioned the use of caustic soda 8O to achieve some »negative« grain amongst other effects. But mostly they are just describing the principle, no one mentiones any example or agents suitable.

I wish I had continued chemistry on the university way back…