NYH Cumberland

[Doug535]

I'm having trouble getting clean looking polishing done on this stuff. I've only done a couple stems with this stuff and it always looks wavy at the swirls after polishing, even with a light touch on the wheel. I go back and re-sand to 1500 and try again to still have these ripples/waviness. Is this just inherent to this stuff or do I need to change my polishing process or compounds or what?

[sandahlpipe]

Ripples could be a few different things. The last step of sanding (for me, it's usually 400 or 600) should be in the opposite direction the wheel hits the spot. It could be grit or dirt stuck in your buffing wheel (try a buffer rake if that's the case) or it could be something in the compound itself. I've switched to using Menzerna compounds and they work a lot better than what I've used before. I've also found that if I get the buffing wheel too hot, the edges get little nubs that need to be raked off.

Also, I've found the tripoli is greasy and I get a better finish if I wipe off the grease between tripoli and white diamond with a paper towel.

[Doug535]

Ripples could be a few different things. The last step of sanding (for me, it's usually 400 or 600) should be in the opposite direction the wheel hits the spot. It could be grit or dirt stuck in your buffing wheel (try a buffer rake if that's the case) or it could be something in the compound itself. I've switched to using Menzerna compounds and they work a lot better than what I've used before. I've also found that if I get the buffing wheel too hot, the edges get little nubs that need to be raked off.

Also, I've found the tripoli is greasy and I get a better finish if I wipe off the grease between tripoli and white diamond with a paper towel.

Jeremiah, I'm using the same process I do for the regular ebonite. Final sanding on the stem is from shank to bit direction and buffing "across" the final sanding, not with it. The ripples/waviness is where the swirls are at in the stem material. I do wipe with denatured alcohol between steps. I have noticed that the cumberland material is softer and gums up my files/sandpaper a lot more than it does on the Japanese ebonite. I always dress my buffs each time before using, I have a limited space to work in and I have a fair amount of dust from other processes, but I also keep my buffs covered while not being used. I'd add a picture but it doesn't show up and my photog skills are a bit lacking. At first I thought it was scratches that I'd missed. Under magnification I can see that it follows the swirl pattern in the material.

[seamonster]

does it look like there might be a density difference in the two colors? One color seems to be dipping a bit lower than the other? I'm not sure that there would be an actual difference. But if there is a minute one, then one of them dipping a bit might signal that you are buffing overly aggressively, and you might try a lighter touch. It's making me think of how briar reacts to a sandblaster, where the softer would is eaten a way, and the harder wood remains raised. you can get this same effect with briar if you buff very hard with a stiff wheel.

Just a wonder......

[Doug535]

does it look like there might be a density difference in the two colors? One color seems to be dipping a bit lower than the other? I'm not sure that there would be an actual difference. But if there is a minute one, then one of them dipping a bit might signal that you are buffing overly aggressively, and you might try a lighter touch. It's making me think of how briar reacts to a sandblaster, where the softer would is eaten a way, and the harder wood remains raised. you can get this same effect with briar if you buff very hard with a stiff wheel.

Just a wonder......

That's what I'm thinking density-wise and as I stated even after going back and re-sanding to 1500 and a light touch on the wheel it still shows up. Either this is inherent or I've gotten a bum piece of material, although I have had 2 "different" (ie... these were bought months apart) sections of this and had the same results.

[sandahlpipe]

It might be a bad batch of cumberland. I use mostly SEM, not NYH, but I haven't had this issue. If you can get rid of the ripples by sanding to 1500, that makes me think either heat buildup or perhaps something with the compound could fix it. If you're not already using Menzerna, I highly recommend the switch. If there isn't enough grease in the compound, it could be heating up the stem enough where the different layers of ebonite would respond differently.

Ripples could be a few different things. The last step of sanding (for me, it's usually 400 or 600) should be in the opposite direction the wheel hits the spot. It could be grit or dirt stuck in your buffing wheel (try a buffer rake if that's the case) or it could be something in the compound itself. I've switched to using Menzerna compounds and they work a lot better than what I've used before. I've also found that if I get the buffing wheel too hot, the edges get little nubs that need to be raked off.

Also, I've found the tripoli is greasy and I get a better finish if I wipe off the grease between tripoli and white diamond with a paper towel.

Jeremiah, I'm using the same process I do for the regular ebonite. Final sanding on the stem is from shank to bit direction and buffing "across" the final sanding, not with it. The ripples/waviness is where the swirls are at in the stem material. I do wipe with denatured alcohol between steps. I have noticed that the cumberland material is softer and gums up my files/sandpaper a lot more than it does on the Japanese ebonite. I always dress my buffs each time before using, I have a limited space to work in and I have a fair amount of dust from other processes, but I also keep my buffs covered while not being used. I'd add a picture but it doesn't show up and my photog skills are a bit lacking. At first I thought it was scratches that I'd missed. Under magnification I can see that it follows the swirl pattern in the material.

[Doug535]

It might be a bad batch of cumberland. I use mostly SEM, not NYH, but I haven't had this issue. If you can get rid of the ripples by sanding to 1500, that makes me think either heat buildup or perhaps something with the compound could fix it. If you're not already using Menzerna, I highly recommend the switch. If there isn't enough grease in the compound, it could be heating up the stem enough where the different layers of ebonite would respond differently.

Ripples could be a few different things. The last step of sanding (for me, it's usually 400 or 600) should be in the opposite direction the wheel hits the spot. It could be grit or dirt stuck in your buffing wheel (try a buffer rake if that's the case) or it could be something in the compound itself. I've switched to using Menzerna compounds and they work a lot better than what I've used before. I've also found that if I get the buffing wheel too hot, the edges get little nubs that need to be raked off.

Also, I've found the tripoli is greasy and I get a better finish if I wipe off the grease between tripoli and white diamond with a paper towel.

Jeremiah, I'm using the same process I do for the regular ebonite. Final sanding on the stem is from shank to bit direction and buffing "across" the final sanding, not with it. The ripples/waviness is where the swirls are at in the stem material. I do wipe with denatured alcohol between steps. I have noticed that the cumberland material is softer and gums up my files/sandpaper a lot more than it does on the Japanese ebonite. I always dress my buffs each time before using, I have a limited space to work in and I have a fair amount of dust from other processes, but I also keep my buffs covered while not being used. I'd add a picture but it doesn't show up and my photog skills are a bit lacking. At first I thought it was scratches that I'd missed. Under magnification I can see that it follows the swirl pattern in the material.

Thanks Jeremiah, I'm actually online looking at Menzerna now, trying to decide which to get.

[sandahlpipe]

I put my findings on this thread here: http://pipemakersforum.com/forum/viewto ... s&start=60

[RickB]

I put my findings on this thread here: http://pipemakersforum.com/forum/viewto ... s&start=60

I picked up the coarse and extra fine after reading that, and I can't believe how much easier they give good results than the garbage I'd been using from amazon. Cuts better and with a finer finish. That stuff's pricey but worth every penny.

[Doug535]

Alright I bit the bullet and got all 3, we'll see if it helps

[DocAitch]

I’m watching this thread carefully.
Keep us posted Doug.
I have noted the ripples in some of my Cumberland, as well as my acrylic, but have thus far written it off as the price of doing business.
Looks like I will have to reconsider that.
DocAitch

[Doug535]

Ok I got the new Menzerna stuff in and re-sanded the stem to 1500 so I started with the H0813 compound. It is better, but still not 100%, could be user error/technique with this product although I could probably live with the result. Will see what the next try reveals. Here's some pics , but I still need to up my photog skills and lighting as it just doesn't show up in them. Here's the specs on this one too. Oh, and where are you guy's getting the magnets for displays at and what size etc...
L= 6.11
BH= 1.88
BW= 1.74
Ch= .900
CD- 1.56
59g
https://imgur.com/a/BtoxKed

[Sasquatch]

So, broadly speaking, the answer here is over-polishing.

When you are dealing with a rod (or a wood) that has two different surface hardnesses, and you go through a sanding process, generally what happens is that the soft stuff is removed more than the hard stuff, and this is exacerbated by two factors - how soft/flexible the sanding surface is (ie is it backed by something flat and hard?) and how much time you spend on each grit.

If you grind the thing at..... I dunno, say 120 on a belt or disc, you'll see no ripples. As you work down toward 500 or 600 grit you may be starting to see some, depending on your process. Then you polish with a big ol floppy sac of shit of a tripoli wheel, and suddenly you can really see that there's a lumpy surface.

The answer is to sand more, sand more at 220-320, get that thing pretty ready, and then sand with hard, flat grits after that, be it emery boards or micromesh pads or whatever, just don't use a 600 grit paper in your hands and sand and sand and sand. Likewise when polishing, you want this thing really really ready for tripoli, spend as little time as you can, run the wheel slower, minimum polish. And that's easy if you have sanded real well at 500 or so. Where you might take a flaw out of black ebonite and sorta get away with it on the buffer, you just can't be that aggressive with these mixed-media rods. The red is hard. Blue is harder yet, blue/black rods are a cow to keep flat.

[Doug535]

So, broadly speaking, the answer here is over-polishing.

When you are dealing with a rod (or a wood) that has two different surface hardnesses, and you go through a sanding process, generally what happens is that the soft stuff is removed more than the hard stuff, and this is exacerbated by two factors - how soft/flexible the sanding surface is (ie is it backed by something flat and hard?) and how much time you spend on each grit.

If you grind the thing at..... I dunno, say 120 on a belt or disc, you'll see no ripples. As you work down toward 500 or 600 grit you may be starting to see some, depending on your process. Then you polish with a big ol floppy sac of shit of a tripoli wheel, and suddenly you can really see that there's a lumpy surface.

The answer is to sand more, sand more at 220-320, get that thing pretty ready, and then sand with hard, flat grits after that, be it emery boards or micromesh pads or whatever, just don't use a 600 grit paper in your hands and sand and sand and sand. Likewise when polishing, you want this thing really really ready for tripoli, spend as little time as you can, run the wheel slower, minimum polish. And that's easy if you have sanded real well at 500 or so. Where you might take a flaw out of black ebonite and sorta get away with it on the buffer, you just can't be that aggressive with these mixed-media rods. The red is hard. Blue is harder yet, blue/black rods are a cow to keep flat.

Thanks Sas, I sand with emery boards and or kraft sticks with a very thin backing of leather under my sandpaper up to 600 grit. I use spray adhesive to attach the leather to the stick and the sandpaper to the leather. Sanding across the stem to keep it even, then I use 600 grit 3M sanding sponge lengthwise to take out sanding marks, with just enough pressure to remove the marks. I had gone up to 1500 to try to have less time on polishing to see if that would help. I do believe with a little more time with the Menzerna, I should be ok.

[LatakiaLover]

Here's how I do it, Doug ---

Do everything you're doing now, then lightly---but throughly---sand the stem again with 1200 or 1500. Use something that's rigid and flat and has two layers of average electrical tape on it, or one layer of hockey tape (SOME cushion is needed). If you sand under magnification you'll notice the "tops" of the high spots can be controllably lowered this way until the low spots disappear.

Then sand again with the same stick wrapped with 2500. Then 5000 if you have it. The smoother you get the surface by sanding, the less time/pressure/surface speed will be required to achieve a shine with a wheel, which is when the unequal hardness "erosion" Sasmonster described happens.

[Doug535]

Here's how I do it, Doug ---

Do everything you're doing now, then lightly---but throughly---sand the stem again with 1200 or 1500. Use something that's rigid and flat and has two layers of average electrical tape on it, or one layer of hockey tape (SOME cushion is needed). If you sand under magnification you'll notice the "tops" of the high spots can be controllably lowered this way until the low spots disappear.

Then sand again with the same stick wrapped with 2500. Then 5000 if you have it. The smoother you get the surface by sanding, the less time/pressure/surface speed will be required to achieve a shine with a wheel, which is when the unequal hardness "erosion" Sasmonster described happens.

Thanks George, will give it a go on the next cumberland I do.

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch use granite wheel for polish. NO FLEX!

[Sasquatch]

Actually had a legit thought the other night too - less sanding PERIOD might be helpful- scrapers do a nice job on stems and aren't likely at all to leave an uneven surface.

[Doug535]

Actually had a legit thought the other night too - less sanding PERIOD might be helpful- scrapers do a nice job on stems and aren't likely at all to leave an uneven surface.

Speak to me of these scrapers, I can't picture being able to keep the button/bite area good enough to polish without at least some sanding. Maybe a link to video or sumpin.

[LatakiaLover]

Been there, tried that. For cabinetry where most surfaces are flat, an expertly used & properly cut/prepped scraper indeed womps ANY type of sanding.

On pipe stems, where (almost literally) NO surface is EVER flat, scraping creates a shit ton of teenie weenie parallel ridges. Curved scrapers help some, but since they can never EXACTLY match the needed radius, you're still left with an unacceptable number of teenie weenie ridges.