Its a shame

[NvilleDave]

This board has really gone downhill since Tyler left us. I'm just really thankful that I was able to learn so much while he (and others) were still here. More and more the posts on this board are just the interactions of a few members who are too busy talking among themselves to notice there are fewer and fewer posts from others--posts that would previously develop into discussions with a wealth of information.

I think Random had the right idea about this place...

[bscofield]

Which of Random's ideas was it that you meant?

[alexanderfrese]

I noticed some lesser traffic, too. I don't think there is a reason in Tyler stepping back, though it seems to have some chronologic coincidence.
I also don't feel like there is sort of an "inner circle" talking among themselves, if not hidden in the "real" pipemakers' area.

I have the feeling that this forum might reach a state of informational saturation. Me being a beginner, I have read quite a lot of threads that don't even concern my work yet, but they might be helpful some day. I believe, many members feel like that, too. The information is there, and has been discussed to some considerable amount. So there is not too much need to start a thread around a question that has been discussed way back.

I feel sorry for the fun of it. But I believe even those "masters" will step back in, when there is some new interesting input. But as the information gathered becomes more and more complete, these inputs become less and less frequent, I fear.

:dunno:

[KurtHuhn]

This board has really gone downhill since Tyler left us. I'm just really thankful that I was able to learn so much while he (and others) were still here. More and more the posts on this board are just the interactions of a few members who are too busy talking among themselves to notice there are fewer and fewer posts from others--posts that would previously develop into discussions with a wealth of information.

I think Random had the right idea about this place...

I'm sorry you feel that way NvilleDave. Every board goes through it's ups and downs, the ebb and flow of information is never constant and never in full duplex. I expect things will liven up again.

But, I do have a question for you: how is your post supposed to help?

[NvilleDave]

Which of Random's ideas was it that you meant?

Thanks for demonstrating my point...

[NvilleDave]

This board has really gone downhill since Tyler left us. I'm just really thankful that I was able to learn so much while he (and others) were still here. More and more the posts on this board are just the interactions of a few members who are too busy talking among themselves to notice there are fewer and fewer posts from others--posts that would previously develop into discussions with a wealth of information.

I think Random had the right idea about this place...

I'm sorry you feel that way NvilleDave. Every board goes through it's ups and downs, the ebb and flow of information is never constant and never in full duplex. I expect things will liven up again.

But, I do have a question for you: how is your post supposed to help?

Hopefully my post will help by generating discussion (isn't that why we're here)...maybe some didn't realize their attitudes could be alienating others--I don't know if my post will generate thought/discussion but that's been the intent of the majority of my posts. Now I have two questions for you: is your question intended to make me feel as if the problem is my own or somehow it is wrong to make this post? Is this your style of encouraging discussion?

[NvilleDave]

I noticed some lesser traffic, too. I don't think there is a reason in Tyler stepping back, though it seems to have some chronologic coincidence.

Tyler really watched over the boards and did a great job in encouraging the newer folks. I'm here to learn and if I don't know something I ask... If I know something about a person's question, I post it--otherwise I keep quiet.

I'll give an example of what I'm talking about... check the gallery and look at the number of posts that an established maker gets and compare it to the number that a newer maker gets. There's a difference... I posted some pictures and I ASKED for feedback--now check an established guy's posts who just says "hey, look what I made".

I also don't feel like there is sort of an "inner circle" talking among themselves, if not hidden in the "real" pipemakers' area.

I have the feeling that this forum might reach a state of informational saturation. Me being a beginner, I have read quite a lot of threads that don't even concern my work yet, but they might be helpful some day. I believe, many members feel like that, too. The information is there, and has been discussed to some considerable amount. So there is not too much need to start a thread around a question that has been discussed way back.

I feel sorry for the fun of it. But I believe even those "masters" will step back in, when there is some new interesting input. But as the information gathered becomes more and more complete, these inputs become less and less frequent, I fear.

:dunno:

[magruder]

NvilleDave,

I was wondering what sort of posts or which posters are missing from
the current offerings?

I can say I wish Todd, Brian, Tyler, Jeff, Jody and several other pipemakers posted more, but I think that is the nature of these boards - as Kurt (thanx again to you, Kurt, BTW) pointed out.

I am responding while taking a break from shaping a new pipe. I am currently producing at the rate of 1 per month. I can imagine that guys in heavy production like the aforementioned, are way too busy most of the time to chat, or even answer the very basic questions that arise.

Also, I will offer that, as a professional in two unrelated fields to pipe making, I am disinclined to respond to most of the posts on other boards
in those fields, as they are generally of the "beginner" type of subjects.

That is usually left to the more advanced amatuers to handle.

When I studied Karate-Do, the black belts taught the brown, brown the blue, blue the yellow and yellow the white. The Master held seperate workouts for black belts. Each level was responsible for the next level down. It seemed very natural and I think this is what happens on a lot of these boards.

And I think the "Masters" are entitled to not have a lot of novices "listening in" on their conversations. It could be confusing and waste time for both groups. Plus, I would think if Todd wants to talk to Jody he Emails him directly.
HTH

Best regards,
Steve

[magruder]

NvilleDave

I'll give an example of what I'm talking about... check the gallery and look at the number of posts that an established maker gets and compare it to the number that a newer maker gets. There's a difference... I posted some pictures and I ASKED for feedback--now check an established guy's posts who just says "hey, look what I made".

I was posting during your posting, so I missed it until after it arrived.

As to the quote above, I imagine that the lower number of responses a new guy gets to his pipes is similar to the fact that at a pipe show, the new guys get a few browsers and the established makers get lots of browsers.
Now I would assume that is because the established guys, as a general rule, are making nicer pipes. Maybe not, I am just guessing.

I can tell you that the general atmosphere here is much more nurturing and cordial than amongst jazz musicians. IF, you were asked to sit in and didn't cut it, you were literally told to get the F#@K out and go home and practice.It's brutal, but it saves time for the novice and the pro. If a guy is serious, he goes home and comes back with better chops. If he ain't, he just goes home and the pros can get on with it.
If a novice comes back improved, it is acknowledged and he is thereby encouraged. If he shows real talent, usually someone will take an interest and offer guidance. It's an interesting and effective system.

Best,
Steve

[alexanderfrese]

…snip. But, I do have a question for you: how is your post supposed to help?

A complaint never really helps, but look what we've got. A nice little discussion – on some meta level, but what the heck…

…snip Now I have two questions for you: is your question intended to make me feel as if the problem is my own or somehow it is wrong to make this post? Is this your style of encouraging discussion?

I hope you don't feel embarassed, but I feel encouraging does not necessarily mean to back up and back up and back up. I really love controverse opinions, and sometimes I wish, the criticism shown towards some (not only the new) efforts were a bit less polite. If we all would agree that a criticism towards a technique or a pipe shown in the gallery is never directed against the maker or based on pure personal point of view, then there could be some more real critique.
Even returning your original question to you might not be directly supporting your statement, but still brings some action into our postings within this thread. And that is encouragement, too.

[bscofield]

Which of Random's ideas was it that you meant?

Thanks for demonstrating my point...

Uhh... OK... How does that demonstrate your point that the forums are not lively and not condusive to newer pipe makers?

And while I'm thinking about it, Kurt: Where is the emoticon where the smiley is giving the finger...?

[hlp808]

NvilleDave,


Just like what KurtHuhn said, Boards do have it's ups and downs. Right now, it's on it's down side because changes are being made and things are being tranfer over. Kurt is probably very busy with things other then this site, so it will take awhile for things to get back to normal. But I am confident that it will. Now It may not be exactly the same as it was when Tyler was running it, but that sort of thing is expected. There will always be certain things missing from the original(the original meaning when tyler was running it) and that's not just in pipe boards, but with everything in life. When things like this happens, people come and go.

Also, Alexanderfrese's feeling is correct, about the saturation of information and this sort of thing happens with many pipe boards.


Jaden

[JHowell]

Hmm, I don't recall the last time I saw a serious question go unanswered on this board. I look at this board as business, not a social forum. If somebody new posts a pipe in the gallery and there's not a chorus of "attaboys" there's probably a reason for that. If that same new guy posts a question, he'll probably get half a dozen respsonses. Because it's information-based, board traffic will vary, and it varied just as much when Tyler was the admin. as now. I respond only because I think the implied criticism of Kurt is unfounded. Generally, I find that the pipe makers here tend not to say anything unless they have something to say. Which is exactly the way I like it.

[alexanderfrese]

…snip I look at this board as business, not a social forum. snip…

Yes :thumb:
Although some fun might be shared as well.

And Yes: There is definitely no reason whatsoever to blame Kurt in any way! Not even in comparing the way the forum is and/or was administrated before and after the move. Sir!

[KurtHuhn]

Hopefully my post will help by generating discussion (isn't that why we're here)...maybe some didn't realize their attitudes could be alienating others--I don't know if my post will generate thought/discussion but that's been the intent of the majority of my posts. Now I have two questions for you: is your question intended to make me feel as if the problem is my own or somehow it is wrong to make this post? Is this your style of encouraging discussion?

My question stands at face value. What do you hope to accomplish with that post? The reason I ask is that it seems as if the post was meant more as a means of letting off steam, rather than a method for getting an on-topic discussion going. I mean, how am I supposed to take it? Especially with statements like "This board has really gone downhill....", and a subject of "It's a shame".

I can't force people to post. Members will post when the subject matter interests them, or when they have a question or comment they feel is worthy of broadcast.

As someone else pointed out, a lot of the full-timers are *extremely* busy. Making pipes for a living is no small feat, and free time during the day is limited. It becomes even more difficult when you have a full-time job *and* are putting in 4+ hours a day in the workshop like I (and probably a few others) do.

Rest assured, Tyler and everyone else is still here and still posting. You might not be able to see the posts, as some of that posting is going on in the area reserved for established pipe makers, but they are here, and are as active as could be expected for folks as busy as they are.

Would I like to see the forum more active? Absolutely! However the timing for that is pretty bad right now. Summer weather, vacations, the imminence of some pipe shows, and the fact that pipe smoking seems to be enjoying a small boost of late, all contribute to a reduced amount of time available for perusing the forum (if the pipe maker is even aware of the forum and is a member).

Again, I'm confident the forum will pick up again. In the meantime, consider, are you helping? I am but one man, and do not have the time to promote the forum as well as I would like. If you feel the forum needs fresh faces and new posts, you (as in "all of you", or "y'all" if you prefer ) can help by talking it up as the subject comes up.

This coming weekend at the NASPC show, I'll have a flyer on my table promoting this board - hopefully that will reach a couple folks. And hey, who knows, since I'll be sitting next to Jody Davis and Michael Lindner, maybe I can convince them to join in as well. :pipe:

[alexanderfrese]

We won't solve that problem. No one wanted to hurt anyone, and I hope no one was hurt so far. One of the major don'ts on discussion groups is not to let off steam. Yes we know, we should watch every single word we use, if it doesn't possibly offend someone else. But interesting discussion arises mostly from the need to say something that is not strictly within the netiquette.
I do personally tend to the other way of keeping flame wars down: I simply don't feel offended unless someone insults me personally. And I can take a whole lot of rubbish, before it can get that far. There's a saying here in GER: "If the sow scratches it's back on it, the oak will hardly take notice." So if we all take a step back for a moment, we will surely agree that "downhill" did not really adress the forum itself, but the reduced amount of traffic. "It's a pity" might have been a bit more elegant as a title than "shame".
NvilleDave went to "General" (For the things that don't fit neatly into the other categories!!), and let off some steam. A rather small plume, if at all. All his postings I know do show that his intention truly was to generate thought and discussion. So if we assume, he did not really want to pick at someone, we shouldn't do either.

[marks]

As someone else pointed out, a lot of the full-timers are *extremely* busy. Making pipes for a living is no small feat, and free time during the day is limited. It becomes even more difficult when you have a full-time job *and* are putting in 4+ hours a day in the workshop like I (and probably a few others) do.

Would I like to see the forum more active? Absolutely! However the timing for that is pretty bad right now. Summer weather, vacations, the imminence of some pipe shows, and the fact that pipe smoking seems to be enjoying a small boost of late, all contribute to a reduced amount of time available for perusing the forum (if the pipe maker is even aware of the forum and is a member).

Kurt, I think you hit the pipe nail on the head. It takes a lot of time to make pipes, and summer always seems to be a slow time on the bulletin boards, not just this one. I also post on Knoxcigar's BB, and that board often goes through periods of slowness, particularly in the summer months. Just like any other activity, things have their busy and slow times.

Also, it seems to me that since the board has been up for a while now, and as new guys sign up, many questions are beginning to repeat, and I don't think the full time pipe makers have the time to answer the same questions multiple times. (I think Alexander spoke to this point already, sorry for the repeat).

As for myself, if I know an answer to a question, I always do my best to reply. Otherwise, I remain silent so others won't have to scroll past my response of "I don't know"

This is still my favorite BB, and I visit as often as time allows. Between personal instruction from Paul Tatum and this bulletin board, I have learned a ton of good stuff, and my pipes are better for it.

Ya'll have a good day.

[NvilleDave]

Some (not all) have interpreted my post as rock throwing. That's a reasonable assessment but that honestly was not my intention. Ben I'm sorry you took things so personally you considered flipping me off (figuratively). I don't remember us having any kind of past confrontation but if there's something I've done to rub you the wrong way please contact me--I sincerely don't want hard feelings since we (pipe carvers) are a small group need to support each other.

Kurt all I can say is sorry--it's nothing personal. I just want to ensure we preserve the community of the board--that's all--if not for the community (all inclusiveness) of this board when I first started this hobby/obsession I would have quit. The more of us carving the better--that's my feeling.

What I've learned here is I guess I need to work harder--both in communication skills and carving.

I'll be out of town for a few days--everyone take care.

Dave

[bscofield]

Some (not all) have interpreted my post as rock throwing. That's a reasonable assessment but that honestly was not my intention. Ben I'm sorry you took things so personally you considered flipping me off (figuratively). I don't remember us having any kind of past confrontation but if there's something I've done to rub you the wrong way please contact me--I sincerely don't want hard feelings since we (pipe carvers) are a small group need to support each other.

Dave, I try and use the emoticons as ways of being super-sarcastic and then getting out of it. Hence my use of: " " when speaking of finding an emoticon to flip you off. Now having said that, I don't understand how or why I became and object lesson by asking you which of Random's ideas you were reffering to. By that I meant that I didn't know if you thought of random's idea of abandoning the forum was right, his idea about pipe makers doing things very traditionaly and thinking they have it down pat the way they do it... etc. Random has lots of ideas. I didn't know which you meant. It sounded like a few of his ideas could be applicable to your post.


See what I mean?

[NvilleDave]

Ben,
The "Random idea" that I was referring to was the one about the forum taking him away from his work--that's how I was beginning to see the forum--I was too focused on the forum and as a result dieing on the vine so to speak. My meaning being I should just ignore the board and get back to work--but I didn't want it to be that way because I learn so much here--I posted a message--the rest is history.

Now, concerning me using you as a reference point--this will take some explaining so bear with me. When I started the thread, my deranged thought process was whoever is/was really concerned about the board would participate in a discussion--selfish people would start throwing rocks. I misread your post to be "sarcastic" therefore I deemed you uninterested in a discussion thereby becoming an example of the what I saw as the problem. Hope that makes sense to you because now that I've written it down I realize what an idiot I was/am.

Again, my bad, I'm sorry for any offense--I harbor no ill will toward anyone and just want to make incredible pipes that make everyone gush and go gaga.

I really am leaving town--I'm just waiting on household six to get home.

Dave