please anyone on sandblasting???

[pipemanruss]

ok im new to the forum and am amazed by it i have been making pipes for a while had to stop for a bit. no shop, but am back it again. i have just a few questions on blasting a pipe.
1. first any suggestions on media? i have been trying a few different types( silica sand and aluminum oxide so far i think i like the silica sand?) and between the media is it better to use coarse of really fine everything ive been trying is abour in the middle.

2.second i have read the other discussions on the amount of pressure needed to blast a pipe and i am in the middle with my compressor i am looking into a new one but i think i will need to wait for a bit at 90 psi i have 6.2 cfm i know that most say that you need at least 10 but its all i got. will this work? honestly? i am getting some results in my testing would i be better starting with a coarser media then switching to a finer one later in the process??

3. how long does it realy take to blast a pipe some say 3 hrs or more is that realistic or am i just being stupid on thinking that it cant take more than an hour or 2 tops??

thank you and i will post some pics soon or some recently finished pipes i have a perfect pipe that i want to blast but dont want to screw it up. :thumb:

[KurtHuhn]

I'll go against the grain right off the bat.

If you can get by on your current compressor, go for it. CFM and PSI are both important, but what is really important is the results you can get. Sounds like you have a decent compressor, in fact, something my father-in-law would have used when he owned a body shop 8 years ago. So you have to take a moment for the compressor to catch up? Big deal. Let it catch up, and you can examine the pie and see what's what. Gives you a moment to really look at what you're working on. Ad if you look around, you can find a gun that only needs 5 CFM - just under what you can put out anyway.

[Skip]

I like to sandblast and do it quite often. Every one will have their own opinions about what media they like. I like to use a mix of the finest aluminum oxide and glass beads I can find.

If you want a shallow blast like you see on a Dunhill Shell Briar it will not take long, like 45 minutes or less. If you want major relief it can take hours as you have been told. In my case I spend more time waiting for my crappy compressor to catch up than I do with the blasting. That will explain the issue of time in my case.

I think the hardest thing to decide on is how to determine when to stop. Major blasting will show more relief but you stand the risk of reshaping the pipe. While the grooves deepen the ridges get lower also.
I got some great ideas from Jim Cook in Chicago this year. He blasts the pipe in a coventional manor and when the grooves show up he switches to a system that blasts each groove on a individual basis. This is big time slow but the results are incredible. You also get real deep grooves and do not change the shape of the pipe. No more thin walls. I will now start offering that system as a option but due to the time required it will not happen on every blasted pipe.
Have fun!

Skip Elliott

[NvilleDave]

I'm starting to look at blasting cabinets... the less expensive ones on Ebay look like lessor quality and the rest are way too expensive.

What kind of cabinet do you guys have and where'd you get it? Kurt you said you have two--are there any manufactures that you would recommend--either to look at or avoid?

Dave

[KurtHuhn]

Do not, under any circumstances, purchase one from Harbor Freight or Grizzly. They are poop.

The benchtop units those two companies sell:
- Are stamped sheet metal that's been (poorly) welded in some places, and (poorly) riveted in others.
- Has a top window is very thin plexiglass with no frame or other kind of support.
- Leak like a pasta strainer.
- Arrive at your doorstep beat to hell due to crappy packaging.
- Are a pain the butt to clean out if you need to switch media.
- Will need the light switch replaced almost immediately.
- Use a third-rate blasting gun that will require the air valve to be replaced within 3 hours of use - oh yeah, this is a non-user-service part.
- All hose clamps in use on the cabinet, including those holding the gloves on, are third-rate products made from inferior materials - you'll need to replace these before you can do anything with the cabinet.
- All the air fittings in use on the cabinet are third-rate materials that will need replaced before you can blast the first thing.

After several hours of running back and forth to Lowes to get replacement parts, using 100MPH tape to try and seal the inside of the seams, adding hose clamps to the internal air hose (after replacing all those fittings), rebuilding the air valve in the gun with pieces you find in your plumbing spare parts drawer, and aligning the air passages in the gun, you will have a servicable blasting cabinet. Totally not worth the time investment - or the additional $30 worth of fittings and repair parts.

All of that dissapointment has prompted me to look at the all-plastic cabinets from Cyclone. Jody Davis turned me on to these, saying that they work very well. I should be receiving the one I ordered any day now (hopefully today) and I'll let you know my first impressions.

[NvilleDave]

That's excellent information to know because I was actually looking at Harbor Freight. I'm interested to hear about the Cyclone (once you've had time to play/work with it) and where you ordered it from.

Thanks.

Dave

[pipemanruss]

i will admit i used the harbor freight one and it did the job pretty well i have nothing to compare it to but mine didnt leak nor did i have to do any upgrades to it. it was a bit tough to change the media but i cant see that being easy on anything less than a free standing one. and i just dont have the space for one of those. i do have a couple of questions for kurt

i was looking into the cyclone cabinets and they had some with pencil blasters instead of guns. would these be any good for blasting pipes. i would think that the pencil would blast in a defined place making it easier to excent the grain? i am not sure i have never blasted anything else before so kinda dumb to the whole idea and a plus to these is that they only needed like 1 or 2 cfms to keep them running way under what my compressor puts out? but will that work or do you need a gun?? :think:

[KurtHuhn]

Heh. No idea. I'll know more when I take delivery. At this point it looks like I won't get it until next week some time.

[NvilleDave]

i was looking into the cyclone cabinets and they had some with pencil blasters instead of guns. would these be any good for blasting pipes. i would think that the pencil would blast in a defined place making it easier to excent the grain? i am not sure i have never blasted anything else before so kinda dumb to the whole idea and a plus to these is that they only needed like 1 or 2 cfms to keep them running way under what my compressor puts out? but will that work or do you need a gun?? :think:

Brings up a good topic to discuss--I looked at the pencil blaster also BUT reconsidered once I saw they have a lower CFM and PSI than a gun. If you don't want to spend all day on one pipe, don't you need a higher CFM at the nozzle? If you want a deeper blast, don't you need a higher PSI?

I know we have many makers on this board who do sandblasting... I really wish we could get more input on what they use. A simple list--I would buy;
- gun with a minimum CFM of
- gun with a minimum PSI of
- size nozzle (ceramic or metal)
- media (220 or whatever)
- I'm happy or unhappy with the results I get because yada yada yada

Thanks all--best regards,
Dave

[pipemanruss]

i do wish that it were that simple just a list and a willing hand but i think it is a bit different than that. i know that every piece of briar is different and they will blast differently. also and more the important i know that every pipemaker is somewhat secritive of what and how they will blast a pipe. this keeps eveeryone different and unique. i just wish that there were a few guidelines out there for the newcomer to the sandblasting aspect. so that we would have a guide to start from and then experiment from there to get the results that we as an individual are looking for. does anyone want to help or is this going tobe one of the secrets that we will learn and develop over time through trial and error.

man i wish i had found this site when i first started making pipes like 5 years agoit would have made everything so much simpler

[KurtHuhn]

I know we have many makers on this board who do sandblasting... I really wish we could get more input on what they use. A simple list--I would buy;
- gun with a minimum CFM of
- gun with a minimum PSI of
- size nozzle (ceramic or metal)
- media (220 or whatever)
- I'm happy or unhappy with the results I get because yada yada yada

- Whatever works
- at least 80-90 PSI
- whatever works
- whatever works
- When you find your style, you'll always be happy with the results.

Sorry, but that's about all you'll get out of most pipe makers that have taken the time to experiment and figure out what's going to work for them, their style, and the briar they most often use. As Trever put it to me "a lot of what you're asking is approaching the point where I say, 'How much are you paying for my experience?'"

Aside from the protectiveness that pipe makers have for their formula of blasting, the simple fact is that no two pipe makers will get the same results from a given set of parameters. The finish that I get is vastly different from what Jack Howell gets, even though the the equipment we use is similar - at least last I knew. The set of parameters is very different depending on the person.

Some people can spend 45 minutes blasting a pipe and get the same results that I spent 10 minutes on. So, even if I told you everything I do - you might end up with a really crappy blast and be very disappointed.

I will say, however, that CFM isn't everything. You want decent CFM, yes, but what's important is the pressure and the flow of media. 15 CFM at 125 PSI might be more efficient than 5 CFM at 125 PSI, or you might end up a horribly misshapen pipe with absolutely no grain definition at all. the key is balance. For what it's worth, I think my trigger gun uses about 6-7 CFM at 90 PSI. That's more than enough. The only reason it uses that much is because I can't use a smaller orifice on it - otherwise it would probably only use 3-4 CFM.

As far as media - experiment. There are places where you can get a small 3-pound or 6-pound container of media - just enough to help you see if this stuff will work for you. Get a bunch of different media in different grits, and see what will work. You may be surprised at your findings. Starblast is much different than Aluminum Oxide. Silicon Carbide produces one type of finish, and even Walnut Shells or Corn Cobs can be used depending on what you're looking for.

Sorry I can't be more specific, but hopefully I've dropped enough hints to get you looking in the right direction.

[magruder]

^^^ Damn decent fellow that Kurt :thumb:

[NvilleDave]

I know we have many makers on this board who do sandblasting... I really wish we could get more input on what they use. A simple list--I would buy;
- gun with a minimum CFM of
- gun with a minimum PSI of
- size nozzle (ceramic or metal)
- media (220 or whatever)
- I'm happy or unhappy with the results I get because yada yada yada

Sorry, but that's about all you'll get out of most pipe makers that have taken the time to experiment and figure out what's going to work for them, their style, and the briar they most often use. As Trever put it to me "a lot of what you're asking is approaching the point where I say, 'How much are you paying for my experience?'"

At first I prefaced my post with a whole big long winded deal about how some pipemakers are secretive and want to protect what they've learned and then I thought... Jeez I'm stating the obvious but heck, someone may make some input so lets just get to the point and ask the question. Guess I should have left it in. Sorry guys, I try to keep my posts as brief as possible without losing the message. Next time I'll try to do better.

[NvilleDave]

i just wish that there were a few guidelines out there for the newcomer to the sandblasting aspect. so that we would have a guide to start from and then experiment from there to get the results that we as an individual are looking for.

That's what I thought I was asking for--I was trying to help you dude. I'll keep my mouth shut next time.

[StephenDownie]

Blasting is an art that I'm only beginning to understand. With that point made I'll share a bit of what I've learned:

1 usually the finer the media, the more detail comes out. (Usually)
2 using the same media you can get vastly different results holding the pipe closer to or further away from the nozzle.
3 different medias of the same grit will give different results. Glass bead, aluminum oxide and garnet all give defferent results in finish and depth of the blast though the size of grit is the same.
4 If you're not sure use a scrap of waste briar from the pipe you're blasting to experiment on before committing to blasting the pipe. Keep some aside for this purpose.
5 blasting a pipe can take off a fair bit of material. Keep an eye on the thickness of your bowl walls as you're blasting and be aware how much material you have between your drilling and the open air.
6 Other pipe makers might be different, but I usually use a pressure of between 90 and 110 PSI when blasting.
7 I'd suggest buying a number of different medias ranging from 60 to 220. Aluminum Oxide, Glass Bead and Garnet are good places to start. Interesting things can happen when more than one media / grit coarsness to blast a pipe.
8 After blasting only a short time I'm convinced that my blasting techniques will take years of experimentation to develop. Don't expect perfect results overnight.

Good Luck!

[KurtHuhn]

i just wish that there were a few guidelines out there for the newcomer to the sandblasting aspect. so that we would have a guide to start from and then experiment from there to get the results that we as an individual are looking for.

That's what I thought I was asking for--I was trying to help you dude. I'll keep my mouth shut next time.

No need to get insulted. If you want a starting point, try this:
- any old blasting cabinet with included trigger-operated siphon gun
- compressor that can do 7-10 CFM at 90 PSI
- several kinds of media in several grits
- about two to three months of weekend experimentation

Start by blasting at 90PSI with a coarse grit, then move to a finer grit at a lower PSI to get the definition. The coarser grits won't be able to get into the nooks and crannies to define the grain, but starting off with a finer grit will lengthen the time it takes to blast considerably - and you run the risk of wearing the whole surface down evenly with no definition.

Also, try different angles. Blasting at an oblique angle will get you a much different look than blasting perpendicular. Also, try blasting both against and with the grain - each of these results in a radically different look.

What I just told you is nothing you couldn't have gotten on 2 days of experimentation. The key is, experiementation. And practice. Experimentation and practice are the keys. Talent as well. Talent, practice, experimentation, and patience. Add to that, time. Hoo boy....

It really is like trying to teach someone to draw. Some people Just Do It - others need to practice endlessly just to get a decent looking stick figure. There's nothing easy or formulaic about it.

[pipemanruss]

wow some people are getting pretty mad here i didnt mean to start anything like this. i commend all of you that have given hints and suggestions they are a big help. some people just dont get it that experimentation is all of the fun and the results that i might like others might not like and the ones that they like i might not fancy. i think this has all gotten out of hand. i was curious when i first got my cabinet and just wanted a few hints and to know if my compressor would work and such. after i experimented for a few hours i found out that there are too many variables in blasting a pipe for any one person to give a simple this is how its done solution. i can olso see why pipemakers keep this method somewhat secret because it makes each makers blast different and unique.

this is my first blast and i am happy with the results tell me what you think. i have ideas for next time but i believe that they can only get better.

[LexKY_Pipe]

If this is your first my friend, you're well on the road. You can see the grain ridges well. I really like what you've done. :thumb:

[achduliebe]

I second Craig's comments. Very very nice blasting!

[KurtHuhn]

Suggestions:
- Try using a constant angle of attack for the pipe. I see some places that look like you blasted with the grain, and other places where you've blasted against it.
- To get a deeper blast, really crank down the pressure and spend some time on each individual ring - or group of rings in this case.
- briar needs to be selected for blasting based on the grain structure. While you did a good job, I suspect that that particular piece might have looked very good as a smooth finish. The rings are almost too close together to get any real definition.
- Was this a single-stage or two-stage blast? For a two-stage blast, go with a very fine media and a very low (comparitively) pressure. That will help dig out from between the rings, while not being to aggressive on the straight striations.

Overall very good. I really dig that color, too.