Who and in what way prefer to work?

[GbpBulgaria]

Hello
I would like to post this theme long ago.
Who and in what way prefer to work?
First shape or firs drill the stummel. \not the tobacco chamber but the mortise and the air hole too.\
I personally shape the block first and sincerely not because of something else but because of shortage of tools / machines. No lathe, no belt saw.
I have tried to work with drill press – bad result because I cannot square the block that is why I start to shape first and then drill the stummel. The first attempt to do this was very good. Good-looking bowl nice drilled air hole and good smoking pipe until now. \I use it every day\.

Anyway my question is - who and in what way prefer to work? Moreover the most important WHY?

I am very curious to hear different opinions about this.

Regards
George


www.sitekreator.com/gbpbulgaria

[KurtHuhn]

I do both. For classical shapes like billiards and bulldogs I tend to drill first since I can index everything to the holes. If I do a freehand or a more complex shape, I tend to shape first, then drill once the shape is roughed in.

[Frank]

@Kurt
When you drill after shaping, do you hand hold the stummel or clamp it?

Regards,
Frank.

[KurtHuhn]

I just hold on to it.

I've been blessed with some good geneology for muscular development.

[achduliebe]

Being a relatively young pup to pipemaking, I drill prior to shaping. Maybe as I upgrade my equipment I can do some shaping before drilling.

[Frank]

@Kurt
At this stage of my foray into pipe making I won't get into asking how you get the accuracy, but not only must you have darn good musculature, but a darn good eye to get the chamber and draft hole to intersect exactly where you want them. I take my (smoking) hat off to you.

Most times that I've tried to freehand drill wood I've either drilled crooked and/or almost been flung into the wall with skid marks on the palms of my hands when the drill bit dug in. I think I'll stick to clamping the work piece until I have a deal more practice/experience.

Regards,
Frank.

[GbpBulgaria]

I just hold on to it.

I've been blessed with some good geneology for muscular development.

The muscular development is helpful but I thing that the sharpness of the tools \accurate angle of sharpening\ the exact speed are the more important thing. Moreover the good eye!
However, what must be the sequence of drillings when you first shape the stummel.
Until a little while ago, I drilled the tobacco chamber first \holding by hand\ then the mortise and then the air hole. The result was not good every time. The bottom center of the chamber was not square to air hole. After discussions on this theme with one great pipe maker I have change this sequence – the air hole first, put the drill in to find the exact direction, then drill the chamber, and then the mortise. At first, this method works just fine but now I have a feeling that I drill the air hole “at dark”. Maybe (I am sure Kurt is right) for different shapes you must have an individual approach. For the billiards, OK square the block, chunk it in the lathe drill etc. but the free forms are different.

@ Frank
You say: “Most times that I've tried to freehand drill wood I've either drilled crooked and/or almost been flung into the wall with skid marks on the palms of my hands when the drill bit dug in. I think I'll stick to clamping the work piece until I have a deal more practice/experience.”

I thing you must change the speed and sharp the drill bit. Safety at first!!!!
But yes in most cases after drilling the chamber my palms have an pipe looking stamp on for pretty long time

In any case for me personally drilling after shaping is a better method because I have a better control on the block, speed and as a whole what happens in every moment.

Regards
George

www.sitekreator.com/gbpbulgaria

[KurtHuhn]

@Kurt
At this stage of my foray into pipe making I won't get into asking how you get the accuracy, but not only must you have darn good musculature, but a darn good eye to get the chamber and draft hole to intersect exactly where you want them. I take my (smoking) hat off to you.

It's not all that difficult - though I do suggest working on some waste blocks to get the feel for how it's done. Also, using a lathe is suggested - that way you can index things with construction lines and the tailstock. At least I find this helps me. The most important thing is to make sure your bits are sharp, and that they're the right kind - spade bits are a no-no.

Most times that I've tried to freehand drill wood I've either drilled crooked and/or almost been flung into the wall with skid marks on the palms of my hands when the drill bit dug in. I think I'll stick to clamping the work piece until I have a deal more practice/experience.

Hand strength is paramount. You don't really need to be the incredible hulk, you just need be able to grip very firmly.

[GbpBulgaria]

Yes Kurt.
I am totaly agree.

[NvilleDave]

This is the email I got from Todd when I asked about "hand-drilling";

Email #1
"Hello Todd,

<edit out non-pertinent stuff>

Now for the question; I decided to give shaping prior to drilling the stummel a try. I understand the process--intersecting lines with dabs of epoxy. Can you point me in the direction of "special equipment"? pictures, drawings, description or a source of where to get it? I understand if you're too busy and any bone you could throw me would be great. Thanks!

Best regards,
Dave"

Email #2;
"Hi Dave,

<edit out non-pertinent stuff>

As for the drilling of a preshaped stummell, it requires special bits. You can contact Ken Lamb (www.lambpipes.com) about them, but I think he's reworking the patterns for them right now. My other advice would be not to try it until you have the proper bits. It can be extremely dangerous.

Best,

Todd"

Email #3;
"Todd,
I have a set of Ken's reground tapered Silver&Deming bits--is that what you mean? I tried to call him but no answer. Thanks.

Best,

Dave"

Email #4
"Hi Dave,

No, the bits I'm talking about are entirely different. I'm pretty slammed with things to do right now, but if I have a moment and can remember, I'll snap a picture for you.

Todd"


At this point I still don't know what kind of bits Todd is talking about and haven't pursued that matter anymore--I have a system figured out that removes the majority of "eye-balling it" but without the mystery bits and for fear of ending up as Frank described I haven't worked on it anymore. The thing is though, I can see a distinct advantage to shaping prior to drilling however, as with all things, people see things their own way and advance their own systems--this thread may have motivated me to start working on this again. I would still like to know what Todd is talking about.


Best,
Dave

[GbpBulgaria]

Maybe the mystery bits are Danish style spoon tobacco chamber cutters but I am not quite sure about this. Ken Lamb offers these cutters on his site.
I am trying to make that sort of cutter with help from a friend of mine (he is a toolmaker with 30 and more years of experience). The bit is looking good but it is not that sort of cutter as I suppose. When the block is chucked (I’ve made a test with drill press) the bit working perfect smooth from the top to bottom of the chamber and square too but when I try holding by hand – big problem. I cannot explain in English but as result it was necessary to cut out about 10 mm from the top of the bowl and to drill again. I can post the picture of this drill bit tomorrow. I use the customized by me cutter same like these cutters from Pimo and from J.H.Lowe conical, grinded by hand and using grinder + disk sander I have. Working fine and smooth while it is sharp. Note that when I start to drill in any case I use a pilot drill like Combination Drill and Countersink you can find on bitsnbors.com.

Anyway, I am curious what Todd is talking about too.

Regards
George
:dunno:

[KurtHuhn]

Here is a chairmaker's bit, AKA "spoon bit":
http://www.woodzone.com/Merchant2/merch ... gory_Code=

This is useful when making pipes, but it's not the type that Todd uses - last I knew. He showed me one of his bits a couple yeasrs ago as the NASPC show, and it's difficult to describe without pictures. It's a bit that's machined from a solid piece of steel - looking a lot like the spoon bit above, but with no convex surface. Instead, the area where a spoon bit is convex, is flat. That's a pretty base description, and it certainly doesn't do it justice. It's a little more complicated than that....

Imagine laying a reshaped spade bit on top of a spoon bit that matches the profile, and you have a pretty good picture of what they look like.

[NvilleDave]

Thanks Kurt--from your description (and the picture of the spoon bit) I have an understanding of how it removes the danger of the dreaded "catch" and "wrenching" from a normal bit. That makes sense. :thumb: The light bulb just came on!

Best,
Dave

[Frank]

I believe this is more or less what Kurt is describing. They are custom turned, ground and milled from drillrod stock, then hardened and tempered:



Note: The milled section is less than half the diameter of the rod, thus there can be no off-centre "wandering" while boring, even freehand.

Regards,
Frank.

[GbpBulgaria]

@Frank @ Kurt
I thing this drawing is more correct then mine you are right. The milled section must be less than half the diameter of the rod I agree with this. I will make a new bit with milled section less than the diameter of the rod and will try with it handholding the stummel.

Here you can find my drawing and the prime source picture.
http://www.sitekreator.com/gbpbulgaria/tools.html

George

[KurtHuhn]

Yep, that drawing is pretty much spot on. The only difference I've seen in the actual bits is that the shank is typically .5" (or around 13mm). However, the concept is very sound. You need to be sure that the material remaining is around 51% of the thickness - and that provides the self-centering characteristics of the bit.

[GbpBulgaria]

Yes, Kurt the shank of my bit is 10.00 mm (around 0.4”) in diameter. I am not sure about the grinding of this bit. What must be the angle of grinding and where exactly must be the sharp edges?

Regards
George

[achduliebe]

For those in this discussion interested, here is a pick of some of Tom Eltang's spoon bits. Not sure where I came across this picture.

[Frank]

Theoretically, this is what the cutting edges look like viewed from a cutaway cross section:



You would probably need a Ball End Mill bit to grind the concave surface, then mill a cutting taper for the cutting edges as shown in the picture above.

@George:
The grinding I was referring to would be the rounded "nose" at the end of the bit. This could probably also be turned on a lathe with the use of a Rotary Table or an Indexing Wheel, or some such accessory. I'm not too sure, since I don't posses these items and haven't needed to cut radii to date.

If any of you guys own a small Sherline lathe, this item could be used to turn the nose radius: http://www.sherline.com/2200pg.htm.
Nice item. At that price I would buy it, but it only fits the Sherline lathe.

Regards,
Frank.

[GbpBulgaria]

Thanks Frank, Kurt
I will try to produce a new bit next week and will post pictures!

@ achduliebe
This picture is the same I use as prime source.


Regards

George