Layout/Alignment problems

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:23 pm

#6 is on the becnh. and it's the worse yet! I can't tell if it's my layout, my set up, drift while drilling, or some horrible combination. It's not consistant, except that my draught hole is almost always off to one side or another. My first one was actually the best, but obviuosly an accident! I thought it might be the press, but I also had problems with #5, which I did on a friends lathe. It was a little better, but still off. Meeting the depth is better now that I'm boring the draught hole first. BTW, I spun a pipe cleaner all the way into the bowl on this last one That also seems to reamed it off a bit, and it certainly was exciting for a moment. 8O. Think I'll go for some drill rod in there next time....

I'd be very interested in knowing what you folks do to lay out your drilling on the block, how you do your set ups and allignment in the press or lathe, and what you do to keep this bang on while drilling. I really want to get it right on next time!

JSPipes · Post by **JSPipes** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:30 pm

Hi Scott. How are you drilling now? How are you laying it out? From that we ought to be able to help.

I do my drilling on a lathe. I use a 4 jaw chuck with 2 jaws removed. I square up the block first thing and then draw a picture on it with lines for drilling. I always make sure the block is bottomed out in the chuck. That ensures that the sides will be parallel to the direction of drilling. I use a ruler on top of the block to align it to a 1/16 inch (6 inch long) drill bit.

Then I use a hole starter to get a centered hole, mark my drill bit and drill. Realign (if needed) for the mortise, face it off, and drill that. Then realign and do the chamber, same way as I did the airway. I pull the bit when close to check for the airhole and go very slow from that point on (and check often) to make sure I don't overshoot.

There are some pictures on my web site in the "Pipe Making" link. Maybe they'll help.

Joel
BTW, I have a Ken Lamb 2 jaw lathe chuck for sale.

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:12 pm

Hello Joel, thanks for the reply! Yes, I've checked out the Pipe Making pics and outline on your site numeriuos times in the past couple of months. Very helpful, thanks!

The first 3 pipes I drilled the chamber first, then the mortise, then the draughthole. That was causing trouble with the depth alignment, so thanks to some instructions here (from Hazmat and others), on the last three I reversed this. Also, until this last pipe, I'd been drilling the mortise before the draught hole, and I was using the same angle and alignment for both the draught hole and mortise. This time I wanted a different angle for the mortise and draughthole.

After squaring the block, then laying out the shape and center lines, I center punched the locations for starting the drills for both the mosrtise and draught holes. Then I aligned the block in the drill press vice for the draught hole. I do this with the vice to one side with the drill bit against the side of the block, and then again with a square on top of the drill press vice once the vice is in drilling position. I also marked the depth on the drill with tape, and also set the depth gauge on the press. Then I drill the draught hole (5/32" x 6" long aircraft bit, used slowly and a little at time to clear chips and cool the bit). Then I re-aligned for the mortise, again with a bit against the side of the bock, and with the sqaure on the top of the drill press vice when in drilling position. Then I faced the shank with a forstner bit, and then changed bits, set the depth gauge, and marked with tape (no change in vice position). Then drilled the mortise with a stubby 5/16" bit.

Ah, then the first sign of trouble is I found that it didn't even come close to meeting the draughthole in the center at the bottom of the mortise, and I had the side of the draught hole in the side of the mortise!

So, something was bad in the layout, the aligning process, or something drifted while drilling.

So, after yelling screaming and crying, I then drilled the mortise a bit deeper until it did meet in the center of the draught hole, then refaced the shank until I had gotten bellow the draughthole edge effecting the side of the motrise. Then planned a long stem insert to make up what I lost in shank length!

Then I set up the chamber drilling on my lines for that. I first used a hole cutter to get the beginning shape of the outside of the bowl, then changed to a 3/4" HS jobbers bit and used the pilot drill of the hole cutter to center it, and drilled down to about an 1/8th" of the depth I wanted for the chamber. Then I put a pipe cleaner in the draught hole and changed to the Pimo modified spade bit, and drilled untill I sucked in the pipe cleaner. 8O (I'll use drill rod next time). I ended up needing to go just a bit deeper than that, but that's when I noticed that I was pretty far off of center with the draught hole in the chamber.

As you can see, I'm still refining the process. The alignment was much easier when I tried this on my friend's lathe earlier in the week, but I was still far from prefectly aligned holes. I like the idea of using the hole starter, and I'm also wondering if my aircraft bit is drifting as I drill (not likely in the lathe, but I think could be an issue in the drill press. I'm pretty sure my block was sqaure, but that could be an issue.

I'm not real clear on how to layout the mortise/draughthole alignment. I think that was simply not well layed out on this one, and it's not been an issue for me till now because I was cheating and letting the mortise and draughthole share alignment, even on my slightly bent stems. I liked this new way much better in terms of optimising the stem/mortise and draughthole angles, but I've got to nail down how to pull that off better.

Any big red flags? Thanks again for the help!

JSPipes · Post by **JSPipes** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:01 am

What comes to mind for me, though I don't use a drill press to drill (tried it once or twice, total disaster) is that the block is slipping in the vice with the downward pressure you are applying to the drill bit. Or, the block isn't square or it isn't centered in your vice. Oh, you could try a coat hanger in the draught hole when you drill the chamber out. you'll feel it vibrate when you hit it.

How do you square up your blocks?

I think you'll need some help from the guys that use a drill press for drilling.

Joel

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:50 am

Yes, any of the things you mentioned would do it, and are all a possibility. I remember thinking the block might not be tight enough in the vise at one point. I'll try the coat hanger... Good idea. Hard to get drill stock around here.

I've been squaring up blocks on a table saw with a carbide combination blade. It seems to be effective, but It's not a great way to go. For one thing it's a bit dangeriuos (I launched a block earleir this week when it kicked back on me). Took a a gouge out of the block, but I can still salvage it, and at least it wasen't my hand! I need to get a good combination 1" belt, 10" disk sander with an accurate table and mitre gauge for squaring blocks. The 1" belt part would help a bunch with shaping stems.

Yes, I want a lathe REAL bad. I've tasited it now, and it was much better then the drill press. But I was thinking ALL my problems would be solved. NOPE! But aligning was much easier, also checking work in progress, and I suspect it's more accurate in terms of the drilling itself. Hopefully before long I can get one..... Thanks!

bvartist · Post by **bvartist** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:14 am

I know a lot of guys use long aircraft bits but my attempts to drill with them have been far less than satisfactory. I do all my drilling on a lathe, but your described alignment of the block on the drill press sounds like it should result in fairly close, if not perfect alignment of the draught hole and the tobacco chamber. My suggestion would be to use a shorter, more rigid bit to drill the draught hole. I've tried twice to drill with a 6" aircraft bit and both ended up way off center.(one was nearly out of the side of the tobacco chamber) I switched to drilling with a 5/32" bit with a hex shank and an overall length of about 4" and haven't had any problems since. If I need to drill a draught hole in a shank that is longer than the hex bit, I'll drill to the full length of the hex bit then change to the aircraft bit. Less likely the bit is deviating that way. Works better for me.

David

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:24 pm

Hello David, yes, I've wondered about the added flex in the longer aircraft bits too. And now that I think about it, I didn't use it on my first pipe, which was the best of the lot in terms of alignment! While it may not be my entire problem, I'm guessing it is playing at least a part in it. Thanks!

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:06 pm

One other thing to remember is always to place the same side of the block squarely against the same jaw. Having the blocks square is very important, but always indexing to the same plane helps minimize problems caused by anything else that might be squirrely. Especially in a drill press, where the vise might be a little off center.

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:30 pm

being a drill press user for all my pipes, and a pretty good one (I get 95% spot on

) I'd say that it's your bit. That's too long for any drill press I've ever used. I encountered the issue where the block has been pushed but it was always with the tobacco chamber bit, not the airway/mortise bits. If you think it might be that then just buffer the space underneath the block before drilling, BUT, I'd say it's your bit. If you ever need a 6" then keep one around, but always start with a smaller one and then move onto the larger (length-wise) one. With a decent hole already drilled the bit will not want to wander as much because if it flexes that bit shaft will hit the inside of the airway that you've already drilled.

Here's a tip for salvaging blocks that you expect (or KNOW) have the airway off center. Having done a center line all the way around the block, hand-insert your drill bit into the airway. Look at the bottom of the block with the bit inserted and the back of the bit pointed up into the air. Trace an imaginary line that indicates where that bit is going inside the block. Trace the line to the known depth of the airway and then measure how far it is off center. Adjust accordingly up top for the tobacco chamber bit and you could salvage a block!

bvartist · Post by **bvartist** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:14 pm

bscofield wrote: Here's a tip for salvaging blocks that you expect (or KNOW) have the airway off center. Having done a center line all the way around the block, hand-insert your drill bit into the airway. Look at the bottom of the block with the bit inserted and the back of the bit pointed up into the air. Trace an imaginary line that indicates where that bit is going inside the block. Trace the line to the known depth of the airway and then measure how far it is off center. Adjust accordingly up top for the tobacco chamber bit and you could salvage a block!

Great tip Ben! Why didn't I think of that?!? :dunno: I could have saved one of the blocks I drilled off center.

David

Post by **Tyler** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:26 am

Seth,

Sorry for your troubles.

I'd say the "big red flag" is the aircraft bit. You'd be amazed how much a bit can wander. I'd recommend trying a normal length bit. Pilot point and brad point bits are both designed to prevent such wandering. You might try with one of those just to isolate if that's the problem. (You can pretty much be assured that these bits won't wander.)

Tyler

mahaffy · Post by **mahaffy** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:21 am

Not particularly germane, but related: I have one of those cute little lathes from Harbor Freight. Not enough bed for an aircraft bit, as things stand. What I'm going to try is boring into the tailstock chuck --- it's solid steel --- deeply enough that I can then over-chuck the drill bit, then move it foward as needed (for drilling stems, e.g.)

marks · Post by **marks** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:11 am

Sethile, one thing that caught my attention was where you said that the draft hole was off to the side in the mortise. I know you said that you squared the block, but to be that far off that soon, does not sound like a squared block to me. One thing I do after I square the block is to check it with a square. I am frequently surprised with light gaps between the square and the blocks. Then I go back to the sander and work a little more.

And the others mentioned the drill bit. I always use the shortest possible bit to get the job done. Less chance for flexing. And you have to drill slow. Real slow. Particularly the initial plunge into the wood. I have actually seen the bit move on the initial plunge when I am drilling into the plataux.

Also, since this is your first time drilling different angles for the mortise and the draft hole, practicing on a 2X4 seems like a cheap way to work out the bugs when you change your procedure. You can drill these things all day long for pennies. Even with all the advice here, I would still recommend practicing on them to incorporate what works for your set up. I also drill 2X4's every time I grind a new chamber bit, just to see the profile of the chamber, and to see if I am even on the grinding. When I was building furniture, I learned very early when setting up cuts, always practice on scrap first, prior to making a cut in the expensive Oak, Cherry, etc.

Hope this helps.

achduliebe · Post by **achduliebe** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:11 am

Scott,

I agree with pretty much everybody else has said previously. I must put an emphasis on the speed at which you are drilling. I did not realize how big a factor that was until someone mentioned it here. It eliminated a lot of my problems with drilling. I also modified my drill press vise, with a kind of Ken Lamb looking modification. It was pretty easy, cost about $1.50 to get the supplies from Lowe's. It did require a welder, which luckily one of my brothers had. But first and foremost I will restate in agreement, what was already discussed. First, use a short drill bit. Second, slow down your drilling speed (I use 500rpm, the lowest setting for my press). Third, make absolutely sure your blocks are square.

Good luck on your next pipe.

josh_ford · Post by **josh_ford** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:27 am

Hey Brian,

I was thinking of making a Ken Lamb type adjustment on my vice as well, how did you do it?

Josh

achduliebe · Post by **achduliebe** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:16 am

Hey Josh,

I will try to explain this...then I will try to remember to follow it up tonight with some pics of the actual vise. But basically we bought six long hex nuts (the ones used for butting together threaded rod) and six eye bolts about 3 or 4 inches long. The bolts were welded on top of the drill press vise jaws, three bolts on each set of jaws. They were placed one on each end of the jaw and one in the middle. They were aligned with the bolts placed on the facing jaw. Then the eye bolts were ground down to a point on the ends using a bench grinder and threaded into the nuts. So, I place my block in the vise and line up the bottom of the tobacco chamber with the points of the two middle eye bolts (one on each jaw). Then I tighten down the vise on the block. I drill the tobacco chamber, then loosen the vise a bit, just enough to swivel the block around to drill the airway. And one thing I forgot to mention, at the beginning I orient my block in such a way that after I drill the tobacco chamber and swivel the block to drill the airway, the tobacco chamber is facing me. That way I can take a flashlight and shine it in the tobacco chamber and watch the airway drill bit open up right in the bottom of the tobacco chamber.

As I stated I will try to remember to take some pics of my vise tonight.

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:57 am

Wow guys, this is all fantastic info, thanks so much!

Couple of points: Got to be the long drill bit is a big part of my problem. No more long bit unless I have too for a long shank, and only then after I have started and gone as far as I can with a short brad point. I've been drilling in the 200 to 300 RPM range, and I KNOW this last block was square (tripple checked with a good square). However, I did not make sure and keep the same side of the block oriented to the same side of the drill press vise when I switch from shank to stem boring, and while I have an excellent vice, I'm less confident in the drill press table and the press itself. Keeping that oriented the same makes excellent sense.

Bryan, I'd love to know more about the Ken Lamb type modification too. I'll see what I can find on his site. Are there pics of it? I need all the help I can get on that part (man do I want a lathe, but I'm done making excuses for not having one).

In terms of the mortise and draught hole orientation issue... That's a little trickier to determine, but I think it's layout. The draught hole edge was in the downward side (bottom edge of the shank mortise) not off to one side (sorry, that was missleading in my narration). In other words, it does not indicate the block was not square, but that I either layed out the angle and/or location wrong (my suspician) or simply drilled in the wrong place (I doubt it). I think that drill drift or flex is possible there too, but not likely to have been that much of a factor so close to the top of the hole (1/2").

Thanks to you folks I think I'm on the right track for the chamber to draught hole alignment, but not at all clear on how to lay out the location of the top of the draught hole relative to the tenon mortise. And also the angle of the draught hole (I'm also unclear on what is optimal for the draught hole angle in terms of meeting the chamber given the mortise limitations at the top). I'm assuming an orientation as close to 90 degress to the tobacco chamber as possible will get me the clossest to the center of the chamber? So, what do you folks do to ensure that the top of the draught hole is completely within the mortise, meets perfectly centered with the bottom of the mortise, and is optimal in terms of the angle of entry into the chamber? I know it's not rocket sceince, but I've had a heck of a time knowing for sure how to lay all that out with any confidence. :dunno:

Thanks again! You folks, and this forum are an amazing resrource for us wannabe pipemakers!

achduliebe · Post by **achduliebe** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:40 am

Scott,

I will try to snap a couple of quick pics of my setup while I am at home for lunch. I will post them in a bit.

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:12 pm

Great description of the vice Bryan. Pics of that vise would be fantastic, thanks!

achduliebe wrote:....I forgot to mention, at the beginning I orient my block in such a way that after I drill the tobacco chamber and swivel the block to drill the airway, the tobacco chamber is facing me. That way I can take a flashlight and shine it in the tobacco chamber and watch the airway drill bit open up right in the bottom of the tobacco chamber.

My first 3 pipes where drilled exactly like you described (only without the cool vice), but I had major issues that way. It worked very well on the first two (beginner’s luck), but I had a heck of a time getting the draught hole to chamber depth to match perfectly that way. If it enters the chamber too high, you’re just stuck with it. If it is oriented too low, or drifts low it can miss the chamber entirely and you can drill too far (please don't ask me how I know that), and even if it's a little low, and you can still see when it enters the chamber, you still have to set up again to drill the chamber down to meet it perfectly, and then you can't see again, and it's nearly impossible to get it aligned exactly the same as you had it the first time.

I had several recommendations to change the order and drill the air hole first, even when using a drill press, and then work with mirrors or whatever to see into in to the chamber in order to meet the draught hole at the right depth. I've had a heck of a time with the mirrors. What I'm doing now is placing something into the draught hole to indicate it's location. When that depth indicator starts to move you know your chamber is at the top of the draught hole. What next though? I don't know... I've been swinging the drill press table out from under the drill so I can see down into the chamber, then trying to re-align it to drill a bit more. It works, sort of... but ends up scarfing up the chamber a little due to not having the drill perfectly re-aligned. Here is where the lathe really shines! I tasted using a lathe on #5, and now I'm hooked... Hopefully I can get one soon. Meanwhile I'm sold drilling the draught hole first. I just need to figure out the right combination of mirror angles and light, or maybe it's just not possible to see well into the chamber without moving something....

achduliebe · Post by **achduliebe** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:11 pm

Hey Scott,

I feel your pains. You are walking the path that I was walking until I modified my vise. It's still not as ideal as the lathe, but it is a cheap improvement over what I was going through. I actually have my lathe, I just have to scratch up the money to get a nice chuck for it. We are getting ready to move to a new house and right now the money is on hold until we close on the new house.

Anyways, I tried to take pictures of the vise while I was at home for lunch, but the batteries on the digital camera died after the first pic. So, I have hooked the batteries up for recharging and will finish taking the pics tonight and get them posted on my web site or in the gallery here.