On Stems: To cut or not to cut...

[Tyler]

Actually I started to hand cut my stems once Tyler told me that he would no longer return my calls until I started to do so

Probably the single most helpful thing I ever did for you!



Tyler

[Tyler]

Now that the ball is rolling, I'll offer my opinion.

I agree with the second class comments. 8O Let me be quick to say that despite the baggage the term "second class" may carry, I mean in a literal descriptive sense (as I tried to explain in my post to Kurt). Essentially, what I would say is that if you have not hand cut the stem the pipe is not as good as it could have been...

AND THAT IS OK!! It is just second, not first class. (There is nothing wrong with second class! Heck, I usually can't even afford that!)

Not everyone is Bo Nordh, nor should they be.

That said, I do think it possible to make a preformed stem smoke just as well as a hand cut stem. There is no reason one cannot make identical holes in the two different types of stem. However, rod stock has two very big advantages over preformed stems:

1. Unlimited shaping possibilities (within the constraints of the diameter of the rod), and
2. it is a far superior material compared to the vulcanite in pre-formed stems.

It is for reason number two that I assert that a preformed stem is a "second class" product. My understanding of the manufacturing process of preformed stems is that it demands a higher sulfur content in the vulcanite than in used the rod stock. (I could be mistaken on this, as I have no first-hand knowledge.) Therefore the rod stock is always superior when it comes to oxidation. My experience bears this out, though I grant that my experience is limited. Also, despite cutting some VERY thin bits with rod stock, I have never bitten through one. By contrast, I have bitten through preformed stems with shocking ease. This despite MUCH more "meat" on bit of the stem.

Another thing to consider: I suspect that many that modify preformed stems spend as much time on the stem as those of us that hand cut. Point number 1, in favor of handcut stems can be overcome with a large inventory of preformed stems, and the willingness to modify, but I cannot understand why one would do this. You spend can easily spend every bit as much time, and in the end you did not use the best available material.

All that said, I believe it is very reasonable as a newbie to start with preformed stems, or use them as Kurt does in "budget" pipes. There is not a thing in the world wrong with that. Even Bo Nordh wasn't Bo Nordh when he was a newbie. (Ok wait, maybe that doesn't work...but you know what I mean!) There is nothing wrong with preformed stems. They just need to be on pipes that sell for less, IMO.

A caveat to all of this is acrylic. Since there is no difference in the quality of material between hand cut and preformed, I do not hold this standard as strongly for this material. Hand cutting does still retain the obvious advantage of shaping potential, and it does expand the colors of materials that are available, but it is not as critical as it is with vulcanite. (With that said, we could start a whole new debate on whether acrylic is a viable option for a high grade pipe. )

Tyler

[hazmat]

One of the biggest things that most likely keeps newbie pipe makers from hand cutting stems, as I mentioned in another post, is lack of tooling... my drill press, back before I had access to a lathe, just couldn't do what I needed it to do to actually cut a stem from a rod. Sure, I could drill it out, but I couldn't do much else with it. So I opted for pre-fab stems and selling anything I did sell for 150 or less. I just wouldn't(and won't) sell anything for more than that with a pre-fab stem, no matter how much I've altered its shape. In my heart, I know I didn't make that pipe from stummel to bit and I won't try to sell them as such.

As an aside, I ordered some rod stock last week.

[Nick]

I know just what you mean about the baggage in the term "second class." I would aggree that prefab stems are, in most cases, in the second tier of pipes. With perhaps exceptions being Mike Butera or Jim Cook. I'm still working on hand cutting stems. In the last week I've screwed up two handcut stems. First I snapped on while bending it -damn!- and second I cut through to the surface whille cutting the slot -bonehead!- (Ohh, Josh, this may be as good a time as any to let you know it may be a bit longer on your pipe. Sorry bud.) Anyway, there's nothing wrong with preformed stems. Many pipe smokers could care less. Obviously there are some material quality issues. Thats interesting about the sulpher content Tyler. It makes sense. But the main difference is that they aren't handmade. And if thats somthing you value, then its gonna be an issue at any price.

[josh_ford]

Don't worry Nick, I just finished final shaping last night. Still hours of staining and buffing to go (sorry Dave).

Josh

[KurtHuhn]

FWIW, "second class" was my term that I believe characterized the comments on the other board. I did not mean it as a derisive term, but in exactly the way you went on to characterize your lower grade of pipes. Some folks view preformed stems as only acceptable on a lower grade, "second class" of pipe. "Second class" not as an insulting term, but a literal description.

Ah, I see. I agree completely. That's why I only use them on my "budget" grade of pipes.

[alexanderfrese]

I do think, that the willingness of a potential buyer to accept some sort of grading and the resulting price range is based on some romantic and emotional perception. So they will pay more for a pipe that has a handmade mouthpiece. It does not matter if it "works" better than an optimized premade one.
There are rather normal cars with wood applications (at least in their higher configs), and there are high priced cars with wood applications. I read a double-sided full color ad in the biggest German news magazine "Der Spiegel" once. That ad must ahve cost a lot, and it ran as a series with other ads over weeks. It was from VW, and it was for their top notch model "Phaeton". They made a big thing telling the reader in most sophisticated, well written language how delicate the process of selecting, hand-manufacturing lacquering and polishing the burl wood applications in this car was. Hardly any pix, but you could almost feel the effort they make to get the best of it. Probably this wood will look better than the wood applications in a smaller car, but the price difference is not reasonable as far as facts are taken into consideration.
So we have to consider thet "romanticism" of the customer.

Ultimate goal on that way: Get some land in the mediteranean and grow and harvest your own erica arborea. This would top that feeling of: "In the beginning there was nothingness, and then the pipemaker decided: Let there be pipes…"

[Tyler]

Alex,

I understand your point, and I agree that there is a romanticism to buying the handmade-ness of pipes (and other handmade objects). (If all one cares about is a good smoke, buy a cob.) However, I think your analogy with the car having wooden or plastic trim misses the point slightly. Because the stem is the crucial point of interaction between the smoker and the pipe, it is much more critical to a pipe than trim is to a car. I'd say it is more akin to a custom seats and tires. Seats, because of the comfort of use (granted though, a preformed can be modified to match this aspect of performance, though within more limits because the holes are already drilled), and tires, because of the fact that the most likely thing to wear out on a pipe is the stem. This is especially true with the inferior materials of preformed stems. Cheap tires wear out quickly, better tires have much more life. With the superior vulcanite of rod stock, the "tires" of the pipe can easily last the lifetime of the owner with relatively minimal care and maintenance. I would not say the same with preformed stems.

Why I handcut stems in order of importance to me:

1. Superior material (while retaining the comfort of vulcanite)
2. Artistic (and technical) freedom
3. Handmade
4. To argue with people that don't hand cut stems

Good discussion guys.

Tyler

[Tyler]

Another thought: there are really only two parts to a pipe, stummel and stem. If you are handmaking only one of the two, is the pipe really handmade?



Tyler

[hazmat]

that's almost a "what came first?" kinda question, Tyler.. lol...

[Tyler]

that's almost a "what came first?" kinda question, Tyler.. lol...

Being a theist that believes the Genesis account, and one who handcuts stems, I have no difficulty answering either the chicken OR the pipe question.

[Nick]

Another thought: there are really only two parts to a pipe, stummel and stem. If you are handmaking only one of the two, is the pipe really handmade?

In that line of thought, is a pipe made with a wood lathe, or one where hand chizels are used more hand made than one made on a metal lathe? Or doe the fact that we use tools at all impact the "hand-made-ness" of a pipe?

Unless we're scratching the briar with our fingernails, (I'm sure my toe nails could put a dent in briar, but YUCK! The after taste might be an issue there.) none of our pipes are really hand made. We use tools. And the preformed stems simply come from another tool manipulated by another worker. I think you could argue that someone like Jim Cook who casts his own preformed stems are more hand made than the ones we buy from shops, but not by much. They're just made by the same person who is making the stumel.

Anyway, hand made pipes are a myth. Hand made anything is pretty much a myth. We simply accept that the use of tools goes into any product (save the act of procreation, and even then, some tools can be used. Hehehehe). It seems the more people interact with the product, the greater the degree of hand-made-ness.

[Tyler]

Another thought: there are really only two parts to a pipe, stummel and stem. If you are handmaking only one of the two, is the pipe really handmade?

In that line of thought, is a pipe made with a wood lathe, or one where hand chizels are used more hand made than one made on a metal lathe? Or doe the fact that we use tools at all impact the "hand-made-ness" of a pipe?

I don't see how my line of thinking leads where you suggest at all. It is not an issue of using tools, it is an issue of automation. If the stummels I received were pre-shaped and/or drilled on a fraising machine, I would not call my pipes handmade (even if I modified the shape a bit). My question is simply why does that not apply to the other half of the pipe?

As for qualifying for being handmade (A topic for a new thread, perhaps?), certainly most would agree that tools do not disqualify the accurate application of that term. Otherwise, as you suggest, it would be a meaningless term, which is apparently not the case since it is so often used.

Unless we're scratching the briar with our fingernails, (I'm sure my toe nails could put a dent in briar, but YUCK! The after taste might be an issue there.) none of our pipes are really hand made. We use tools. And the preformed stems simply come from another tool manipulated by another worker. I think you could argue that someone like Jim Cook who casts his own preformed stems are more hand made than the ones we buy from shops, but not by much. They're just made by the same person who is making the stumel.

Jim didn't make the components he mixed though. The issue is not whether you make or create the raw materials. In the case of pipes all that we are doing is shaping. Did you shape it or not?

Anyway, hand made pipes are a myth. Hand made anything is pretty much a myth.

That being the case, why does my question bother you? (Perhaps I am reading you wrongly, but you seem a little irritated by what my question might imply. I am not trying to be offensive, BTW. I was simply struck by that question as I finished a post, so I asked the question to you guys. I suppose I am "thinking out loud.")

We simply accept that the use of tools goes into any product (save the act of procreation, and even then, some tools can be used. Hehehehe). It seems the more people interact with the product, the greater the degree of hand-made-ness.

I don't know how you procreate, but I CERTAINLY don't do it with my HANDS! 8O

Tyler

[ScoJo]

I don't know how you procreate, but I CERTAINLY don't do it with my HANDS! 8O
Tyler

LOL. "Look, Honey! No hands!"

[marks]

Another thought: there are really only two parts to a pipe, stummel and stem. If you are handmaking only one of the two, is the pipe really handmade?



Tyler

Tyler, you raise an excellent point. When I was very early in my carving adventures, around my third or fourth pipe, I was thinking that I would just use premade stems. Paul Tatum asked me if I wanted to stick premade stems onto stummels, or did I want to make pipes? That question has always stuck with me. I am also glad that Paul asked it to me in that manner, as it gave me the push I needed to begin making stems from rod.

[marks]

[In that line of thought, is a pipe made with a wood lathe, or one where hand chizels are used more hand made than one made on a metal lathe? Or doe the fact that we use tools at all impact the "hand-made-ness" of a pipe?

FWIW, I have always been of the opinion that if my hands are in control of the tool as it shapes the pipe/stem, or if my hands are in control of the pipe/stem as I hold it against a spinning disc or belt, then it is handmade.

[alexanderfrese]

Tyler,

kind of misread me (or I was not making a clear point). I would be the last to compare fakes against a real thing. When talking about the wood applications in a cheap car, I remembered a Ford Focus, which is a rather lower medium class car (a tiny car in US eyes) here. In it's higher lines, it came with real wood application, though they simply never fit the overall image of such a car. I just wanted to focus on the emotional (and sometimes irrational) value of the "handmade theme".

As for a simple definition: Tools don't make no difference. We cannot carve the wood with our fingernails or chew a rod into shape. Even using the highest form of machinery would not make it less hand made. Handmade for me shows one thing: That the whole thing is made from scratch for me and it is not copied in a repetitive, mechanical manner.
If I wanted a pipemaker to go for a given shape (don't start that copycat thread again…), he will still copy it, but by his own ways, not just by putting a shape on a copying lathe. It would still be hand made.
To some extreme definition, even a fully computerized CNC machinery makes "handmade pipes", if driven by a creative pipemaker. Imagine a handicapped pipemaker (sorry if this sounds a bit macabre, i just want to state a positive idea) who has lost both of his arms, but is highly creative in finding shapes, engineering the technical side of a pipe, etc. If he uses such a CNC-machinery, for me, he would make "hand made pipes" – at least in my eyes – even though he does not even have hands.
In my eyes, every pipemaker might use such equipment, and still make hand-made pipes. As long as he resists making repetitive series by those means. If we would not agree on that, we would have to throw away every tool we use, since they all modify our hands’ work to some extent. And who wants to judge the difference between tool A and B? Who really wants to stand against technological progress, as long as the man "behind" the tools does not become obsolete?
But for the "romantic" reasons about craftmanship and the term "hand-made" on the clients side I mentioned earlier, the clients probably would not accept such a pipe as being handmade.

[bvartist]

My question is: What do we call a pipe with a handmade stummel and a premade stem? :dunno:

If the pipe maker is willing to accept the fact that a pipe with a reworked premade stem probably won't or shouldn't be set in the same catagory as one with a hand cut stem, and doesn't sell or market the premade stem as anything but premade, why shouldn't the pipe be called handmade? But with a price to match.

IMHO, there are lots of different levels of pipemaking. The use of a premade stem should not bring up the debate of whether or not it is "handmade" but rather can it be called a "high grade handmade" I think most of us would agree that anybody who spends the time to drill, shape, sand, stain and polish a pipe should be allowed to call their work handmade regardless of how the stem was made. The resulting pipe is just not of the highest grade. Isn't there a place in the world of handmade pipes for both high grade ones with hand cut stems and lower grade ones with preformed stems?

Just my thoughts
David

[Heinz_D]

We just had this discussion a few weeks ago in a German forum... I posted my personal opinion of an hand-made pipe from a new pipemaker and I ran in big trouble...

The pipe was perfectly made and the shape is perfectly in symetry and finish - but it was - in my eyes - a very simple shape which could be easily made on a grinding disk (I don't know, if this was the case!). It looks like a balalaika: Rounded ground and flat border.

In my eyes it is a perfect peace of briar and an excellent work in finish and stem work, but I told the guys, that in my opinion it'll be a little bit to simple to call this pipe "hand-made" or better a "freehand".

On the other side it's not possible for a professional pipemaker to lose time in any way and so it's a fact that the most "hand-made" pipes are preformed on a lathe.

So I'm struggling with the terms "freemade" and "hand-made" and I think it would be better to speak about "freeforms". For me there must be a part of handwork to create a hand-made pipe, an individual touch, if you want to.

For a hobby-pipemaker I'm proud to use only a few tools to shape my pipes (no lathe, mostly grinding tools), but - as remarked sometimes in this thread - they are also tools! So we've almost no criterion to make differences for the decission what is hand-made and what is tool-made! At last the customer will decide if the product is desirable or not!

Also I think that the viewer of a product will decide if he'll like what he'll see or if he thinks that it is not worth a second look!

If anyone cuts stems by himself for unusal shapes, I'm sure he would be honored by the customer for this work. - If anyone decides to modify premade stems to his needs and gives them an individual touch, it'll not be same as handcut stems but also his creative work...

The fact for pricing must be the quality of material and the individuallity of the products and I think we can discuss that a long time without a result...

So what I want to say is, that it is not possible to appoint the "morality" in use of premade parts and effective tools - only the customers will decide about the pleasure of the producers work...

... only my opinion, so don't be to angry with me.


Heinz_D

[ArtGuy]

I have had this exact conversation over "handmade" vs "machine made" with a sociology prof. I work with. He stated that a sociologist would define the diference between a "tool" and a "machine" as.. a tool is depedent on the skill of the operator for it's effectiveness and operation. Where a machine merely needs to be set up, turned on and maintained, no futher input from the operator is needed to guide the machine through its process. That seems to make sense to me.

I would say that a pipe made with the use of tools, (dremel, lathe, drill press, sanding wheel, files, bandsaw etc.) is certainly still a handmade pipe as the results achieved are completely dependent on the skill of the operator.

On the other hand, one made by a frasing machine is not. There, a pattern has been made and the machine copies it independent of any further input from an operator.