On Stems: To cut or not to cut...

[alexanderfrese]

Heinz,

I always try to refuse from degrading a simple shape. Beauty and timeless elegance comes from those sometimes stunningly simple shapes rather than from those overengineered "pimp my pipe" ones.
Not being too experienced at all, I find it really hard to make something simple look beautiful compared to the "woooh, look at that" effect of something overdone.

As far as the Freehand term comes into definition, it is completely different. Freehand has to be on the out-of-bounds side. The further from the known lines, the more free. But it will ever be hand-made, if not done by a copying lathe.

[Tyler]

Tyler,

kind of misread me (or I was not making a clear point). I would be the last to compare fakes against a real thing. When talking about the wood applications in a cheap car, I remembered a Ford Focus, which is a rather lower medium class car (a tiny car in US eyes) here. In it's higher lines, it came with real wood application, though they simply never fit the overall image of such a car. I just wanted to focus on the emotional (and sometimes irrational) value of the "handmade theme".

Ah, OK. We are in agreement then. Your point is a good one. A handcut stem does not make a pipe a highgrade just as a Ford Focus is no high grade car even with real wood trim. There are many pipes out there that have handcut stems that are by no means high grade.

[Tyler]

Just to keep throwing fuel on the fire here (I'm sort of enjoying my new role of pot-stirrer) what about Dunhill? Their production is composed of some percentage (seemingly high, at least at points in their history) of pre-turned bowls, but with hand cut stems. Handmade?

Tyler

[Tyler]

I am also in agreement with Alex that a shape's simplicity is not a determining factor in its highgrade-ness. In fact, it is often the simple shapes, done with extreme finesse and excellence, that stand out as highgrade. One of the best pipes I ever cut, shape-wise, was a straight saddel-stemmed billiard.



Here is the only photo I have of the pipe. It is unfinished in the top left of the photo. I'd stack it up against any high grade anywhere for fit, finish, finesse, and execution. I nailed it on that one, if I do say so myself!

Tyler

[bvartist]

Just to keep throwing fuel on the fire here (I'm sort of enjoying my new role of pot-stirrer) what about Dunhill? Their production is composed of some percentage (seemingly high, at least at points in their history) of pre-turned bowls, but with hand cut stems. Handmade?

Tyler

I keep meaning to ask if we can get a new emoticon "pot stirrer"!

Handmade??? The stems are!

Dunhill uses preturned bowls?? I was always under the impression the Dunhill pipes were all handmade by artisans employed in the factory. At least thats what I've always read or heard. Darn, I thought they were supposed to be the highest quality.

[achduliebe]

Well Tyler, that billiard is a fine fine pipe, but if you ask me you nailed it on everyone of those pipes. :thumb:

[Nick]

Heya Tyler,

Sorry if I sounded a bit astringent. I just enjoy playing devil's advocate. I think John made an excelent distinction with differentiating a machine and a tool. To my mind that is the best defence of hand made items yet. Yes, tools are used, but it is the artisan's skill in manipulating the tools that creates the object. This to me answers the basic question. Whether or not you use preformed stems is just a matter of starting points. Yes, most often more hand work goes into the wholy hand cut stem, but just as much effort can be put into modifying a preformed stem. And in either case, a machine made the raw material - rod or preformed stem.

If we accept that the use of tools does not negate the hand made status of an object, then what really makes an object hand made?

To me, the answer would be somthing like the object's nature being completely wroght out of the raw materials solely by the artisan's direct actions.

Just thinking out loud here, but to my mind, that does indicate that a preformed stem would not be a handmade object.

A separate question is are hand made stems better? In my opinion, this is a much more values driven question. If you value X, then yes. If you value Y, then no. Z, maybe.

[Tyler]

Nick,

I think we are in agreement. I too like John's definition. I also agree that a preformed stem is not handmade. When it comes to pipes, all we are really doing is shaping. If we relegate the shaping of a component of a pipe to an automated process, that portion of the pipe is not handmade even if we modify it.

I also agree with your valuation system. If economics is a driving force then preformed stems are probably better. If quality of materials is a driving force then rod stock vulcanite is probably better. Better is context dependant in this case.

Tyler

[ArtGuy]

Just to keep throwing fuel on the fire here (I'm sort of enjoying my new role of pot-stirrer) what about Dunhill? Their production is composed of some percentage (seemingly high, at least at points in their history) of pre-turned bowls, but with hand cut stems. Handmade?

Tyler

I keep meaning to ask if we can get a new emoticon "pot stirrer"!

Handmade??? The stems are!

Dunhill uses preturned bowls?? I was always under the impression the Dunhill pipes were all handmade by artisans employed in the factory. At least thats what I've always read or heard. Darn, I thought they were supposed to be the highest quality.

Nope, from what I understand Dunhill farms the manufacturing of the stummels to the lowest bidder. Many were made in france by Sasieni and some even by Stanwell I believe. I just remember reading that somewhere. I assumed they were also made with molded stems until
Tyler told me otherwise.

[Tyler]

Nope, from what I understand Dunhill farms the manufacturing of the stummels to the lowest bidder. Many were made in france by Sasieni and some even by Stanwell I believe. I just remember reading that somewhere. I assumed they were also made with molded stems until Tyler told me otherwise.

Dunhill is a very mysterious company regarding their methods. Some of that is probably nothing more than they have been doing it so long, and things have changed along the way. Let me disclaim that I have no firsthand info on Dunhill's methods. I do think it is safe to interpolate from all the data offered by various parties and reach the conclusion that at one time or another Dunhill has done just about everything regarding production: turned their own bowls and farmed them out, oil cured and not, handcut their own stems and etc., and etc.. It becomes impossible therefore to characterize their manufacturing processes because it has varied so much along the way.

Tyler

[bvartist]

OK, so I got no response to this question the first time, BUT it just begs to be asked AGAIN!

If a pipe maker uses a preformed stem on an otherwise all hand crafted pipe, ie: drilled the holes in the block, shaped, sanded, stained, waxed, turned a tenon on the stem, added an inlay, reshaped, buffed and polished the stem, what are we to call the finished product? If we can't call it handmade because some part is machine made, we cannot call it machine made because some part is handmade.

I'll also ask AGAIN! Isn't there room in the pipe making community for handmade pipes with hand cut stems and handmade pipes with pre-made stems?

I kind of get the idea that some of the high quality pipe makers have the idea if you aren't willing to hand cut a stem there isn't really any sense making the pipe in the first place and might as well just buy a Dr. Grabow. I will totally agree that if a pipe maker is making pipes with the intention of selling the highest quality he/she can produce, a hand cut stem is essential. However, the majority of pipes sold are far less expensive than these, and at some point the cost of materials used and time spent to produce the pipe makes it unfeasable and even unreasonable to use a hand cut stem. Should we classify the pipe artisans who create these lower priced alternatives as making something that isn't handmade just because their creations don't fall in the same price catagory? Or are they just expected to lose money? Or should they not be making pipes at all?

[Tyler]

OK, so I got no response to this question the first time, BUT it just begs to be asked AGAIN!

If a pipe maker uses a preformed stem on an otherwise all hand crafted pipe, ie: drilled the holes in the block, shaped, sanded, stained, waxed, turned a tenon on the stem, added an inlay, reshaped, buffed and polished the stem, what are we to call the finished product? If we can't call it handmade because some part is machine made, we cannot call it machine made because some part is handmade.

I'll also ask AGAIN! Isn't there room in the pipe making community for handmade pipes with hand cut stems and handmade pipes with pre-made stems?

I kind of get the idea that some of the high quality pipe makers have the idea if you aren't willing to hand cut a stem there isn't really any sense making the pipe in the first place and might as well just buy a Dr. Grabow. I will totally agree that if a pipe maker is making pipes with the intention of selling the highest quality he/she can produce, a hand cut stem is essential. However, the majority of pipes sold are far less expensive than these, and at some point the cost of materials used and time spent to produce the pipe makes it unfeasable and even unreasonable to use a hand cut stem. Should we classify the pipe artisans who create these lower priced alternatives as making something that isn't handmade just because their creations don't fall in the same price catagory? Or are they just expected to lose money? Or should they not be making pipes at all?

I think precedent has an answer to the question: we call them handmade.

I think many people view the stem as a rather disposable aspect of the pipe, and therefore do not hold its construction methods up to the same standards as the bowl. It is the bowl that typically defines a pipe. We have briars and meers and cobs, not vulcanites and acrylics. The stem is secondary and can be replaced. We replace stems, and it is still considered basically the same pipe. If you replace the bowl (Kirsten's and the like excluded) you have a new pipe.

Tyler

[bvartist]

I think precedent has an answer to the question: we call them handmade.


Tyler

Great! Now I've got to work on getting my pipes called something other than "second class"

[Tyler]

I think precedent has an answer to the question: we call them handmade.


Tyler

Great! Now I've got to work on getting my pipes called something other than "second class"

Exactly! And I won't call you back until you learn. (Does that work even if you've never talked on the phone before?)

Tyler

[marks]

I'll also ask AGAIN! Isn't there room in the pipe making community for handmade pipes with hand cut stems and handmade pipes with pre-made stems?

Certainly.

[bvartist]

Exactly! And I won't call you back until you learn. (Does that work even if you've never talked on the phone before?)

Tyler

Tyler,

Guess that means no more help until my stems are hand cut???? 8O

David

[Nick]

if the pre-formed stem thing bugs you, call your pipes hand crafted or some such thing.

[KurtHuhn]

OK, so I got no response to this question the first time, BUT it just begs to be asked AGAIN!

If a pipe maker uses a preformed stem on an otherwise all hand crafted pipe, ie: drilled the holes in the block, shaped, sanded, stained, waxed, turned a tenon on the stem, added an inlay, reshaped, buffed and polished the stem, what are we to call the finished product? If we can't call it handmade because some part is machine made, we cannot call it machine made because some part is handmade.

I call them hand made. A stem is not a pipe, but I may use a machine-made stem as a component on a budget pipe. I think the assertion holds especially true if you are modifying the stem at all - thinning the bit and button, adding stem rings, changing the shape, and so on.

Think of it in terms of a "home made meal". Just because you didn't slaughter and butcher the steer, or grow and harvest the herbs and vegetables, does not mean that it's not "home made". Contrast that with taking a a box of McFood from the freezer and heating it in the microwave. Or even further, a bag of frozen ingrdients to which you add chicken - is THAT considered "home made"?

I guess it all depends on how deep down the rabbit hole we're willing go with this conversation. There is a fine line, but where that line should be drawn is going to be a point of discussion for centuries.

I'll also ask AGAIN! Isn't there room in the pipe making community for handmade pipes with hand cut stems and handmade pipes with pre-made stems?

Yes. If I made more of these pipes at the $100-ish price I charge for them, I could probably retire tomorrow and go full time. I never seem to be able to keep them in stock. They are, however, not the most challenging to make, which is why I sometimes neglect that line of pipes for months at a time.

I kind of get the idea that some of the high quality pipe makers have the idea if you aren't willing to hand cut a stem there isn't really any sense making the pipe in the first place and might as well just buy a Dr. Grabow. I will totally agree that if a pipe maker is making pipes with the intention of selling the highest quality he/she can produce, a hand cut stem is essential. However, the majority of pipes sold are far less expensive than these, and at some point the cost of materials used and time spent to produce the pipe makes it unfeasable and even unreasonable to use a hand cut stem. Should we classify the pipe artisans who create these lower priced alternatives as making something that isn't handmade just because their creations don't fall in the same price catagory? Or are they just expected to lose money? Or should they not be making pipes at all?

There is a market for everyone. Most pipe makers, especially artisans that want to go pro, have figured out that they *need* to produce inexpensive pipes that are also high quality. Partly for the reasons John mentioned, and also because these pipes are gateways to getting customers that are interested in more expensive offerings. But, getting those budget pipes made quickly enough to be profitable is sometimes difficult - that's where experience in process comes into play.

[bvartist]

I guess it all depends on how deep down the rabbit hole we're willing go with this conversation. There is a fine line, but where that line should be drawn is going to be a point of discussion for centuries.

Thats what makes it fun to discuss!

Yes. If I made more of these pipes at the $100-ish price I charge for them, I could probably retire tomorrow and go full time. I never seem to be able to keep them in stock. They are, however, not the most challenging to make, which is why I sometimes neglect that line of pipes for months at a time.

Really!?! I would have thought it would be the other way around and people would buy the more pricey ones for the name and collectibility. I guess that old quote by Mark Twain("What the world needs is a good 5 cent cigar.") holds true in pipe making as well. A good smoking moderate priced pipe is a rare find.

But, getting those budget pipes made quickly enough to be profitable is sometimes difficult - that's where experience in process comes into play.

Yeah, I'm green with envy of you guys that produce a pipe in hours. I measure my time spent in "days"! (Sometimes weeks as the case is with #15, but it has been just sitting for a while)

FWIW, I do handcut my stems.(maybe Tyler will talk to me again! ) I started with premades but don't like being restrained to a particular shape and its a whole lot easier to do more decorative work. I'm just finishing my 15th pipe and my 7th with a handcut stem. Takes time for me to do, but well worth it, I think. Now if I can sell one to support my "habit".

David

[ArtGuy]

Ok, if we can agree that pipes both with stems made from rod stock and those with pre-made stems are each hand made, then lets add another component to the conversation. What price cutoff would be correct (in your opinion) for a pipe with a molded stem? Or do you even see a reason to have one. Is there a limit to what one should charge for a pipe with a premade stem?