Freehand drilling woes

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:52 pm

Youtube? That's the best option I can offer. I've been sans internet anywhere but at work for a looong time, so I'm not quite as web hip as I'd like to be.

Karol · Post by **Karol** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:41 pm

also this: http://video.google.com/

link to upload it on the right hand side.

/karol

Karol · Post by **Karol** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

ooops, i guess you have to have gmail/google account. which is free... let me know if you need an invite.

/k

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:42 pm

Hey Trever, I'll trade you all my working spoon bits for that stummel drilling machine! I'll even throw in one of those little four packs of Taddy Porter

OK, my bits from Brad are working great for me, and here are the specs as best I can measure them with decent calipers:

overall diameter .812 - .407 = 50.12% remaining
overall diameter .749 - .375 = 50.07% remaining
overall diameter .687 - .346 = 50.36% remaining

Not exactly what I expected but nothing under 50%. I suspect the accuracy of my measurements, but doubt they're horribly off... Interestingly, I do think that my 11/16" bit (the smallest and also the highest percentage material remaining) is the smoothest cutting, although I'm happy with all of them. Makes me a bit nervous about sharpening though.

I'd consider asking Brad about your 7/8 and see what he thinks. I think it should have more than 50%.

I'd love to see that video, and maybe throw a link to it up on the pipe making section of Pipedia as well as here. Not many of us will every get a chance to play with a drilling machine like that one

If you can't deal with the hoisting options listed and can send me the file as an attachment to: sethilepipes@gmail.com, I think I can throw it up on my server.... Is it a .wmv?

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:01 am

TreverT wrote:By the way, does anyone know of a very simple video hosting site? I shot a 2 minute video of drilling the above pipe on said machine, which I'd stick up somewhere if there's easy hosting available.

Trever, how did you host the making of this pipe? I forget where the original post is, but it's somewhere on this forum. I recall downloading the video clip:

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:22 am

sethile wrote:Hey Trever, I'll trade you all my working spoon bits for that stummel drilling machine! I'll even throw in one of those little four packs of Taddy Porter

I suspect that, given the weight of the thing, it would be cheaper for you to have a machinist custom-build one for you than to have of of these shipped!

sethile wrote: Makes me a bit nervous about sharpening though.

I did sharpen mine, which I assume accounts for it being just the tiniest hair under 50%. However, it was hammering before, which is why I sharpened it in the first place, thinking it might just not be edgy enough.

sethile wrote: I'd love to see that video, and maybe throw a link to it up on the pipe making section of Pipedia as well as here. Not many of us will every get a chance to play with a drilling machine like that one

If you can't deal with the hoisting options listed and can send me the file as an attachment to: sethilepipes@gmail.com, I think I can throw it up on my server.... Is it a .wmv?

Nah, these are MOVs. I shot them with our digital camera rather than the video camera, as it's much less bother to transfer from tape and all that. I'm in the middle of uploading them to Google Video now, and will post when they're up - Apparently they have to be screened or something, in case they're "inappropriate content". They're not much to see, though, just a couple minutes of quick drilling.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:25 am

Frank wrote: Trever, how did you host the making of this pipe? I forget where the original post is, but it's somewhere on this forum. I recall downloading the video clip:

I have no idea. Actually, I have no memory of posting any sort of "Making of" for that pipe!

I'm definitely getting old. But I probably just hosted it on my own server, which I could do with the MOVs as well, except that it would be bandwidth I have to pay for, plus I'd have to open CuteFTP and that's just so much work...

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:33 am

There was mention earlier in this thread about using a laser to mark straight lines on stummels when free-hand drilling. In that vein, Micro-mark has laser levels on sale right now for $9.95 if anyone's interested.

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:54 am

I think I got my lasers from Micro-Mark, now that I think of it. Good price, I think mine were at least double that. As an aside, a machinist friend and I are messing around with some spoon bits on a CNC lathe, he may be interested in doing a run if there's interest. Which I'm not sure there would be after Brad's deal, but since I missed that one and cured myself of making them by hand it's a personal project.

Jack

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:31 am

hazmat wrote:There was mention earlier in this thread about using a laser to mark straight lines on stummels when free-hand drilling. In that vein, Micro-mark has laser levels on sale right now for $9.95 if anyone's interested.

That's a great tip, thanks! I've got one on the way... now I've got the high tech solution in the works. I think I can buy the masking tape locally for the low tech one

Jack, when you know the pricing on the bits you and your buddy are working on you might want to announce it. Some folks missed out on Brads run, and you can't have too many options, especially when it comes to chamber bits! The problem is these things aren't cheap or easy!

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:45 am

I'd probably be interested.

Quick question about freehand drilling. Do you freehand the air hole and mortise, too? And if so, are you using a spiral bit? And if so, so, how difficult is it to hand-hold the stummel while drilling those holes with that type of bit?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:09 am

Yep, the stummel is hand held for all the holes. As to how hard, well its hard enough.

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:40 am

hazmat wrote: ...Quick question about freehand drilling. Do you freehand the air hole and mortise, too? And if so, are you using a spiral bit? And if so, so, how difficult is it to hand-hold the stummel while drilling those holes with that type of bit?

I'm finding it's not difficult at all in terms of holding the stummel against how the bit cuts for either the mortise or draught hole. The difficulty is lining things up correctly while laying out the lines and then for me, while locating and starting the draught hole relative to the center of the mortise. I'm using brad point bits for the mortise and draught holes, and so far I have not noticed any tendency for them to pull or grab the stummel. This surprised me at first as I had thought these bits would be difficult to control while holding and advancing the stummel on to them by hand.

I do think if one where to chase a small hole with a larger S&D bit such as would be the case if drilling the mortise after the draught hole on a straight pipe, that would tend to grab hard and pull the stummel into the bit too fast.

Drilling the mortise first seems to be working great in terms of the cut. Alignment is where the challange is for me, but it's coming.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:44 am

I was looking at lathe parts and such, thinking about Trever's horizontal drilling machine and Scott's idea of using a lather bed for some such tool. Well, I ran across a steady rest. This piece was really quite big, and I thought, "what if you could use a large steady rest as a holder?" If you could rig up some jaws, it would work pretty well I think. The stead rest is essentially a big circle with three extendable points used to steady the thing being turned. If you had one big enough, and could mount some more stable jaws to the points, well it just might be a pretty cool work holder.

What do you all think?

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:59 am

The problem with a steady rest is that it isn't designed to slide along the ways. It is so short in relation to its width and height that if it is fastened loosely enough to slide it will tend to tip and cock, jamming instead of sliding and changing the alignment. The tailstock goes on the same set of ways, but is longer than it is wide so it stays in alignment. A better candidate might be a follow rest, which bolts to the carriage. It usually bolts to the right side of the slide, but you could drill and tap holes to mount it on the left if there's not enough swing over the slide.

A bigger problem is that you need four points or jaws rather than four. You can do it with three, I guess, but there's a good reason there are no independent 3-jaw chucks.

The biggest problem, though, is that if your alignment lines don't tell you where to drill using the tailstock as a guide, they won't tell you where to drill if you put the stummel in a vise. I still think using a single point in the tailstock as your guide and handholding the stummel makes the most sense geometrically. Any vise intended to hold things that aren't either square or round will be necessarily complex. Your hands already are complex, and excel at holding irregular shapes. Of course, they are considerably more difficult to replace.

Here's an idea: before drilling, dimple or spot drill the two points that represent the ends of your drilling axis, where the bit will go in and where the tailstock center will go. Instead of a drill bit, chuck a center, could be just a piece of drill rod on which you've turned a 60 degree point. Snug down the tailstock just a bit, and you'll be able to rotate the stummel between centers and look at it from different angles. Does it look symmetrical, or is it cocked off to one side?

Just a thought.

Jack

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:39 am

Trever,

I didn't bother to read through all of the post details, but wondered whether you've ever been present when someone used a spoon bit before? Have you ever had hands on instruction? Some of the method is of course technique, but most comes from experience. I started hand drilling by using spade bits--now those suckers hammered! But, a steady hand and tight grip got the job done until I owned proper drill bits.

Regarding the bit itself, the tip is not nearly as rounded as others I own. Part of the problem could be in the size of pilot you are using. I always pilot with 5/16" and drill until I just hardly nick the top of my draught hole. There's always a bit of wobble when you're trying to get into the pipe with the spoon bit, but it stabilizes once you're past the curved portion of the bit. It really shouldn't track off center and sounds to me like your hand might be moving. It took maybe 30 pipes before I felt like I really had control over the bit and knew how and when it was drifting. I frequently check throughout the drilling procedure to make sure I'm still on center so that I can correct if necessary. Did you say you were using the tailstock to guide or not? Love mentioned that he stands behind the headstock and pulls with both hands. Tonni Nielsen taught me that method, but I have come to prefer standing in front of the lathe as I would normally and advancing the stummel freehand once the tailstock-guided pilot hole has been drilled.

The fact that the bit is under 50% should really only affect the process by causing some very very slight unsteadiness during the drilling, but wouldn't affect it by causing the hammering.

I have used Brad's drills now for 5 or 6 pipes and they have proved to be very sharp from the get go. He's one of the most meticulous craftsmen I have ever met and his work is nothing short of exact. He's the only person I know who speaks of all measurements in thousanths and actually bores his mortises. That being said, they should have arrived as sharp as is physically possible. Any future touch ups to the edge should be done with extreme care.

Good luck experimenting and I hope to hear that your luck changes.

Best,

Jeff

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:13 pm

That makes sense Jack. Thanks.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:14 am

A few very busy days later...

jeff wrote:Trever,

I didn't bother to read through all of the post details, but wondered whether you've ever been present when someone used a spoon bit before? Have you ever had hands on instruction?

Nope! But I've had it explained in detail by email before, and have ground my own crude spoon bits and used them without much trouble.

jeff wrote: Regarding the bit itself, the tip is not nearly as rounded as others I own. Part of the problem could be in the size of pilot you are using. I always pilot with 5/16" and drill until I just hardly nick the top of my draught hole. There's always a bit of wobble when you're trying to get into the pipe with the spoon bit, but it stabilizes once you're past the curved portion of the bit. It really shouldn't track off center and sounds to me like your hand might be moving.

Yes, my hand is moving quite a bit, as the thing is genuinely jackhammer-like. Trying to get one canted-top pipe drilled will produce bruised fingers. It's so hard to hold onto that there's no way I could hope to detect the "feel" of the pilot hole to tell if it's drifting or not. It takes all my effort just to keep the pipe against the whamwhamwham bit.

jeff wrote: It took maybe 30 pipes before I felt like I really had control over the bit and knew how and when it was drifting. I frequently check throughout the drilling procedure to make sure I'm still on center so that I can correct if necessary. Did you say you were using the tailstock to guide or not?

Yes, I have to, otherwise it will go off-center almost immediately and drill in a random direction.

jeff wrote: I have used Brad's drills now for 5 or 6 pipes and they have proved to be very sharp from the get go. He's one of the most meticulous craftsmen I have ever met and his work is nothing short of exact. He's the only person I know who speaks of all measurements in thousanths and actually bores his mortises. That being said, they should have arrived as sharp as is physically possible. Any future touch ups to the edge should be done with extreme care.

Yep, I know - I've heard nothing but good things from everyone who's bought them, which is why I'm so puzzled. I'm obviously doing something crucially wrong, but I can't figure what.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:07 pm

TreverT wrote:Yep, I know - I've heard nothing but good things from everyone who's bought them, which is why I'm so puzzled. I'm obviously doing something crucially wrong, but I can't figure what.

Perhaps you could send the bit to another pipemaker who is experienced with freehand drilling and uses a similar size bit, and have them give it a try. If they get the same results as you, the bit must be the problem.

GbpBulgaria · Post by **GbpBulgaria** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:00 am

Hi Trever

maybe this will be helpful:
this is the first similar tool I have made:

It does not cut well neither in the center…

This is the drawing posted by Frank in this forum maybe one year before:

and this is the tools I have made using this drawing. The result is better.
Please have in mind that I do not have lathe (I have bought small one last week and now I am tooling it:)) and I am drilling using a horizontal drill by holding by hand.

I believe that the centering comes from the pilot drill I use, a tapered one. This gives best results for me.

George