Freehand drilling woes

[TreverT]

I've been meaning to see if I couldn't switch more of my drilling to freehand drilling lately, but it's giving me fits. Or, more precisely, my new 7/8" spoon bit is giving me fits. I've got a couple of smaller, pointier spoon bits that I ground (very crudely) myself, and they will follow a pilot hole with perfect accuracy right down to the bottom and give me a precise bowl hole. This bigger bit, however, is a real handful - It wants to wander off-center like crazy. The tip is rounder than my usual, but I don't know if that has anything to do with it. What I do know is that it will reliably veer off in the direction it's turning. Halfway down a bowl, the bowl hole will be moved to the to left and my original pilot hole will be on either the lower left or the center-left side of my "new" bowl hole. I've tried pushing it harder, always using a guide pin, but to no avail... It insists on wandering off center. It makes the whole concept of shaping the bowl first pretty pointless because I end up having to drastically reshape the bowl interior by hand & Dremel to make it fit the stummel shape again.

In hand with this woe is a second problem, which is that on any bowl with a remotely angled top (like forward-leaning Dublins with horizon-level tops, for instance), it hammers like hell. WHAM WHAM WHAM. It's all I can do to hold the thing, it STILL goes off the guide hole, and worse, it will totally re-orient itself in the bowl shape and "force" itself more level with the bowl top - ie, pushing the bowl chamber backward to be more 90 degrees to the top.

I appear to be doing something drastically wrong, but I'm darned if I can figure what, when my homemade cruddy smaller versions work so well. I've read of folks here talking about these bits "cutting like butter" and I admit I'm perplexed, since mine seems a lot more like holding a jackhammer.

Tried at rpms from around 500 to 1200, no big diff. Maybe this is normal with larger-size spoon bits? Or maybe they just need immense pilot holes to keep them from wandering?

[KurtHuhn]

I think the problem might be the rounded tip. How round is it? I've got a rather big spoon bit, somewhere around 7/8" IIRC that doesn't display any of this behavior. However, I've left that bit very pointy. It follows the pilot hole perfectly, and even cuts well without a pilot.

[sethile]

I have my own freehand drilling woes. On the last two I made beautiful long curved shanked Freehand Dublins. Unfortunately, it's not really possible to drill them! When refining the shape very slightly after drilling I sanded directly into the draught hole on one, and the other is so thin at one point I see daylight through it!

In terms of the bits wondering. I have found that I need to work my way up. I drill a 5/16" pilot with a brad point drill, then follow that with the 9/16" spoon bit, which I left pointy, then the 3/4" which I've rounded. It cuts great that way, and tends to stay right on track even on the angled top. The largest spoon bit I have is 13/16". That also works fine as long as I work my way up. I have had the chattering WHAM WHAMs before too, but that was when going straight to a larger bit from the pilot.

[sethile]

While were on the subject. I'm looking for tips on a couple of points with freehand drilling that have been plaguing me:

1. Drawing lines for drilling after shaping. I'm having a heck of a time doing this freehand and keeping the lines straight. It may just be a matter of practice, but I'd love to have some sort of aid in terms of a flexible straight edge or something. Any tips on orienting the lines and keeping them straight?

2. I've missed several times when trying to center the start of the draught hole in the bottom of the mortise. It's really tough to see, and I can't seem to feel it. The best I've come up with is using a brad point to drill the mortise that leaves a little dimple, then carefully positioning the draught hole drill into it using a combination of feel, and a flashlight and mirror. But it's really tough to nail it. I'd be real interesting in devising a more foolproof system. Anyone come up with something, or am I approaching this all wrong?

[pierredekat]

I still do all of my drilling at the block-stage, but I have found this guy's video on YouTube very helpful, just the same.

Trever, you will notice the bit he uses to drill the tobacco chamber is rounded, but it still has a pointy quality to it, too. I've been grinding my spade bits with some sort of pointy-nub on them, and they seem to "track" a lot better that way. And a pilot hole of some sort helps as well.

As far as the angled top, maybe consider leaving the top more perpendicular to the tobacco chamber prior to drilling, and then shaping the angle after drilling? Just a thought.

And Scott, notice how this guy uses a long drill bit, chucked in a "pin vise" or "hand chuck" when he drills his draft hole? He goes nice and slow, eyeballs against a straightedge, goes a little farther, eyeballs again, etc.

I adopted this method the last time I missed the tobacco chamber altogether on a rather bent pipe and drilled right through the bottom.

There's a saying I heard one time, something to the effect of: "You can screw up a piece of wood in 2-3 minutes with a hand tool, or you can screw it up in 2-3 seconds with a power tool."

There's a lot of wisdom in that, I think.

The part of this video that leaves me puzzled, though, is how does this guy do his mortise after drilling the draft hole?

That's where I think your method, Scott, of starting the draft hole on the dimple left by the brad-point bit is the best way to go. That's how I do mine, anyway.

And egads, is that a black magic marker he's using?! I learned the hard way about that many, many moons ago. Now I don't even allow myself to carry a ballpoint pen into the shop for the fear of that temptation to use it.

[TreverT]

I think the problem might be the rounded tip. How round is it? I've got a rather big spoon bit, somewhere around 7/8" IIRC that doesn't display any of this behavior. However, I've left that bit very pointy. It follows the pilot hole perfectly, and even cuts well without a pilot.

It's the one on the left:



The one on the right is one of my own crude homemade spoon bits, turned down from rod stock on the lathe to a point and then ground in half (by eyeball) on the grinder. It follows a pilot perfectly, zoom zoom. It's the big one that's the problem, and it's one of the ones that was recently professionally machined, so I was expecting better results - Trying to drill with the thing is like holding a jackhammer. It's totally impossible to drill just holding it freehand and letting it follow a pilot hole, because it will wander off center immediately and I'll end up with a ragged oval hole way off to one side. Using a guide pin in the tailstock and tremendous grip, I can get a vaguely acceptable (with a lot of Dremel correction) bowl while tearing my pipe's bottom all to pieces as it constantly slips off of, or jams into, the guide pin.

It's left me really puzzled because I read of you guys just free-holding the pipes and pressing them on, and there's just no way I could do that - the bit would probably drill right out the side of the bowl, and there's certainly no way it would stay anywhere near centered.

Obviously I am doing something very wrong. I have tried going bigger - drill a 5/16" pilot hole, then enlarging that with the pointy spoon bit, then enlarging THAT with a normal bit a little larger than the spoon (the hole will stay right on track through all of this), but as soon as I get to the big spoon bit, WHAM WHAM - bowl goes right off center and the bottom gets all torn up from being dragged around on the guide pin.

[TreverT]

While were on the subject. I'm looking for tips on a couple of points with freehand drilling that have been plaguing me:

1. Drawing lines for drilling after shaping. I'm having a heck of a time doing this freehand and keeping the lines straight. It may just be a matter of practice, but I'd love to have some sort of aid in terms of a flexible straight edge or something. Any tips on orienting the lines and keeping them straight?

It may help you to sight down the length of the pipe and make a few marks in a straight line, rather than looking at it flat-on and trying to make your line. When you compress that visual line down to 1/2", it's a good bit easier to keep it accurate. I don't use any edges, though - I'm lucky in having a good eye/pencil skill.

2. I've missed several times when trying to center the start of the draught hole in the bottom of the mortise. It's really tough to see, and I can't seem to feel it. The best I've come up with is using a brad point to drill the mortise that leaves a little dimple, then carefully positioning the draught hole drill into it using a combination of feel, and a flashlight and mirror. But it's really tough to nail it. I'd be real interesting in devising a more foolproof system. Anyone come up with something, or am I approaching this all wrong?

I just chuck up the airhole bit I want, slide it around the bottom of the mortise until it naturally centers down into the bottom point (I use a pointy-bottomed mortise) and then give it a couple of hand turns to make a starter hole. Then when it's time to line up your guide pins and drill, you've got a handy readymade starter spot to slot into.

[KurtHuhn]

1. Drawing lines for drilling after shaping. I'm having a heck of a time doing this freehand and keeping the lines straight. It may just be a matter of practice, but I'd love to have some sort of aid in terms of a flexible straight edge or something. Any tips on orienting the lines and keeping them straight?

It helps to close one eye so that you see the pipe in only two dimensions, then carefully draw your lines, removing as much much of one of those dimensions as you can. Think about how you sight down a plank of wood to see if it's straight. You grab one end, close one eye, look all the way down the length of the wood. This way you can detect crowning, cupping, warping, and twisting that would otherwise be imperceptible when just looking at a plank with both eyes and in three dimensions. When you reduce an object's apparent dimensions like that, imperfections are easier to see. Try using a similar method when drawing your centerlines.

2. I've missed several times when trying to center the start of the draught hole in the bottom of the mortise. It's really tough to see, and I can't seem to feel it. The best I've come up with is using a brad point to drill the mortise that leaves a little dimple, then carefully positioning the draught hole drill into it using a combination of feel, and a flashlight and mirror. But it's really tough to nail it. I'd be real interesting in devising a more foolproof system. Anyone come up with something, or am I approaching this all wrong?

I do this completely by hand. I start the airway bit with the mortis for a few millimeters, then move it to where it has to be in regards to the needed airway. The bit I use has a small tip (Forstner bit) that acts as teh centering point, so there's a small witness mark at the bottom of the mortis for the center. I drill straight in, then pivot the stummel using the bottom of the mortis as the pivot point until the airway matches up to where I need it.

I also drill the airway way before I've hit final dimensions on the shank. This way I can stick a 5/32" drill rod stock into the hole and use it as a guide to show me where the airway is while I finish shaping the shank. That way, you don't run too much of a danger of sanding into it.

[KurtHuhn]

It's the one on the left:

That's not exactly "round" - it still has a nice point on it. I don't know, man. It seems to me that it should just work, unless the cutting tip of the bit is somewhat less than 50% of the width of the stock.

It's left me really puzzled because I read of you guys just free-holding the pipes and pressing them on, and there's just no way I could do that - the bit would probably drill right out the side of the bowl, and there's certainly no way it would stay anywhere near centered.

I'll be honest, I tried using the lathe with a guide pin or pointy center, and got similar results. Now I just muscle it in. I hold the stummel in my right hand, support the lathe with my left (so that I don't shove it across the floor), and drill a little at a time along the centerlines that I drew. I constantly remove the stummel from the bit and check it over to be sure that I'm not wandering off course, and I correct as needed. I drill the pilot hole the same way.

What I really need is a horizontal drilling rig on a big heavy base so that I can support the stummel with both hands and keep it perfectly lined up while using my body mass as leverage to press the stummel onto the bit. This shouldn't be too difficult to make, but it's just finding the time to do it.

[hazmat]

Sorry to hear about all the problems you're having, Trever. But I must say it is nice to see a professional having problems with some aspect of this craft... and I mean that in a good, constructive way.

When you're trying to figure this stuff out, there's loads of frustration as you mess this up, drill that off-center, waste 3 feet of rod stock learning how to make stems, etc, etc. It can really put a damper on the process, especially after you look around at the work of the pros for inspiration and think to yourself "damn.. they just whip them out, time after time, beauty after beauty". So seeing you, an established professional, asking the forum for technical assistance, it's very humanizing and very helpful all the same in that newbies, journeymen, etc, see that yeah, everyone has a rough day in the shop on one level or another. It's not just me or him or that guy there, it's all of us.. pros, journeymen, hobbyists.. the whole shebang. And it's also an eye-opener to exactly how helpful this forum really is!

Matt

[Nick]

1. Drawing lines for drilling after shaping. I'm having a heck of a time doing this freehand and keeping the lines straight. It may just be a matter of practice, but I'd love to have some sort of aid in terms of a flexible straight edge or something. Any tips on orienting the lines and keeping them straight?

The thing I do to draw the lines is use making tape. I'll lay the tape out on the pipe in as strait a line as I can get it and then just scroll my pencil on the edge. Its worked pretty well so far, which is only twice really.

Also, I have done my drilling on a motor instead of a lathe. I have one of those cheap lazers rigged to the top of it so I can keep my alignment. Additionally i hot glue a level tube I cut out of a bullet level on the side along the other axis. Not that my two tries have been great, but it seems to be OK. Never had any trouble with the hammering though.

[Frank]

I hold the stummel in my right hand, support the lathe with my left (so that I don't shove it across the floor), .....

What I really need is a horizontal drilling rig on a big heavy base so that I can support the stummel with both hands and keep it perfectly lined up while using my body mass as leverage to press the stummel onto the bit.

After seeing some pictures of Trever's workshop, I don't think he has this problem. I doubt his equipment can easily be shoved anywhere unless he wants it to be moved.
Fortunately my combo weighs a couple of hundred pounds.

[geigerpipes]

Trever

How sharp is the bit? how much bevel does it have? and like stated check if its a bit above or below centerline...I not super experienced but the spoon bits i got from Eltang are even rounder bottomed than yours and still i get nice centered results..

One good tip when drilling freehand make sure your lathe is bolted to the table and position the table so you have space to stand behind the motor of the lathe..that way you can hold the stummels in bouth hands and get more power + keep good sight of your guide lines because you are pulling the stummel right towards you

[Frank]

One good tip when drilling freehand make sure your lathe is bolted to the table and position the table so you have space to stand behind the motor of the lathe..that way you can hold the stummels in bouth hands and get more power + keep good sight of your guide lines because you are pulling the stummel right towards you

An interesting approach. This actually sounds more practical. Most people push the stummel onto the bit.

[TreverT]

How sharp is the bit?

At least sharper than the ones I've made for myself, though it doesn't seem *super* sharp. It's hard to tell with spoon bits.

how much bevel does it have?

I'm not sure what you mean here. It's round on the outside and flat straight across the middle. It's one of the bits that Brad Pohlman had made - Several other folks here have bought the same ones and had good results, which is what makes me think I'm doing something seriously wrong here.

and like stated check if its a bit above or below centerline...I not super experienced but the spoon bits i got from Eltang are even rounder bottomed than yours and still i get nice centered results..

It seems to be centered in the cross-section, but I certainly can't get centered results... I get totally random results! I just can't figure why it would so easily and willingly veer off of the pilot hole, especially a big pilot hole.

One good tip when drilling freehand make sure your lathe is bolted to the table and position the table so you have space to stand behind the motor of the lathe..that way you can hold the stummels in bouth hands and get more power + keep good sight of your guide lines because you are pulling the stummel right towards you

Bolting isn't a problem as all my equipment is on heavy solid iron tables bolted into a concrete floor. Doesn't even jiggle. Unfortunately, I can't stand behind my motor, though, as it is belt drive.

It occurs to me to try this on my other drilling machines and possibly even my little Taig at higher rpm to see if I get different results. I'm sort of neutral on how much to fiddle with it (the bit cost $100 so I'd like to be able to use it, but losing hours and multiple usable stummels in experimentation can quickly overrun that lost cash in even bigger lost production time). I don't really need to get this bit working as I have smaller ones that do work, and the big drilling machine that can use spade bits, but I like to have as many techniques available to me as possible.

[JHowell]

Trever, perhaps try measuring the diameter of the ground section vs. the full diameter. Making my own spoon bits leads me to believe that there is a very narrow acceptable range of remaining metal once the relief is ground. 51 or 52 percent is great, 55 percent won't cut, 49 percent and you have the sort of behavior you describe. I'm wondering if your 7/8" bit might not have been ground with too much relief, letting it flop around in the hole. I've read comments from other makers in the past saying it isn't that critical but that's not what I've experienced.

Regarding straight lines on a curved surface: laser. I have a granite surface plate, and a cheap laser of the sort sold for guiding circular saws held in an indicator/scribing base. Everything set up square to the world, a good check.

Jack

[Frank]

Regarding straight lines on a curved surface: laser. I have a granite surface plate, and a cheap laser of the sort sold for guiding circular saws held in an indicator/scribing base. Everything set up square to the world, a good check.

Excellent idea.

[TreverT]

Jack, measuring the bit shows it is a very tiny hair under 50% - something like .02mm. It's really extraordinarily close to a perfect 50% mark.

Oddly, I checked my own homemade spoons and they tend to be 48-49% but don't give me the same fits.

I've sat and studied the bit while it was chucked and spinning, and it *seems* evenly rounded at the tip. It also spins true (One thought I had was that maybe it had gotten somehow slightly bent or torqued). At least, both look OK to eyeball.

I remain stumped. Bit remains nearly unusable.

[sethile]

Wow Trever, sorry about your bit issues. Something is not adding up. Maybe you need to talk with Brad about it.... I've heard the diameter after grinding needs to be just slightly larger than 50% to center correctly, but he'd no doubt know the specs he was shooting for. I'll try measuring mine when I get back home today. Anyone else have a good working bit handy to measure?

In terms of the performance difference between yours and Brad's, perhaps you've gotten away with under 1/2 diameter on your smaller bits, but the larger bit makes that factor more critical?

Thanks to all for the help and reflections on my draught hole in the mortise alignment, and line layout issues. I think these will get me on the right track .

Nick and Jack, great to have both high tech and low tech solutions for laying out lines. Both sound like good solutions to try, thanks

[TreverT]

That may be (That is, that the larger size is what's causing this one to fuss at 50% while the smaller ones do fine down to 48%). Bugger, since that's essentially unfixable.

Granted, I'm not hurting for drilling or bits (I have around 25 custom-made pipe bits) but I was looking forward to having a bigger size for hand drilling. Call me weird, but I like knowing that I have available to me a full range of techniques among all the different drilling methods. My fave is still this thing:



(Voilà this afternoon's pipe!)



Padded grippy jaws, easy alignment, no pin gouges on my pipe, and I can use regular old spade bits.

By the way, does anyone know of a very simple video hosting site? I shot a 2 minute video of drilling the above pipe on said machine, which I'd stick up somewhere if there's easy hosting available.