The big vulcanite buy from Germany

[LatakiaLover]

That new outfit Trever talked about in February... did it ever get off the ground? And if so, what's the status of the bulk purchase? Anyone..? Anyone..? Beuller...? Beuller..?

[Leus]

Uh-uh. I need to get their contact info, too.

[kkendall]

I'll be buying a few rods to try my hand at stem making.

[sethile]

That would be SEM, and several of us bought rod from them:

http://www.sem-hitzacker.de/
mailto:info@sem-hitzacker.de

It's great material, with the exception of the initial run of 22mm stock. My understanding is that has been rectified.

Since the initial pricing quotes went out early this year they have raised their prices significantly (nearly double), but they are still cheaper than buying from Pipe makers Emporium (PE) if your buying in quantity and the quality is comparable, or perhaps even a little better. But my guess is if your only looking for a few rods, it will be cheaper and much easier to get it from PE.

The shipping and handling charge from SEM was expensive, and the Euro is also very strong against the dollar, so those all have to be factored in. Several of us also had "communications issues". Perhaps that has improved.

I'll be ordering from them again, but it will be a while. I have a good inventory for now. My guess is putting together a joint purchase will be a big pain for whoever organizes it, but if you can put together an order of 100 meter rods or more you'll save the 25 Euro fee for smaller orders and might get a little better rate per rod on the shipping charges.

In addition to pipe makers and wood wind mouthpiece makers they also supply ebonite rod to Monte Blanc among others.

[kkendall]

Since the initial pricing quotes went out early this year they have raised their prices significantly (nearly double), but they are still cheaper than buying from Pipe makers Emporium (PE) if your buying in quantity and the quality is comparable, or perhaps even a little better. But my guess is if your only looking for a few rods, it will be cheaper and much easier to get it from PE.

The shipping and handling charge from SEM was expensive, and the Euro is also very strong against the dollar, so those all have to be factored in. Several of us also had "communications issues". Perhaps that has improved.

I'll be ordering from them again, but it will be a while. I have a good inventory for now. My guess is putting together a joint purchase will be a big pain for whoever organizes it, but if you can put together an order of 100 meter rods or more you'll save the 25 Euro fee for smaller orders and might get a little better rate per rod on the shipping charges.

PME prices are for 20" rods, SEM rods are 1 meter (39.3" ea) and they are close to the same price (using the 100 meter order pricing). So double the length for the same price.

It should cost about the price of one rod for not buying the minimum 100 meter order and about the price of one rod for shipping. I just have to figure out the break even point.

[sethile]

PME prices are for 20" rods, SEM rods are 1 meter (39.3" ea) and they are close to the same price (using the 100 meter order pricing). So double the length for the same price.

It should cost about the price of one rod for not buying the minimum 100 meter order and about the price of one rod for shipping. I just have to figure out the break even point.

I think your significantly underestimating the cost of shipping. In my case shipping was more than the cost of the rods! This was back at the old price, so it was still less than 1/2 the cost of from PME even with the exorbitant shipping. I couldn't tell if they were marking up the shipping, or it was just that expensive. They used DHL for this (the yellow truck guys), although this is easily confused with another DHL, which I gather is the German equivalent of our USPS. They also used that for some of the orders to the states, but some of those orders faced huge delays.

I'd figure out what you want and then ask them for a firm quote including the shipping and handling fee. Of course when I did that, they thought I was ordering and not asking for a quote. I got an invoice, and then the material showed up! I'm just not sure you'll save much in the long run unless your looking to place a larger order, and my guess is you'll be in for an adventure in the process. At least all the rest of us were!

I'll likely order again, but I hope to wait until I can afford a larger order, and hopefully they will have Cumberland available by then too. Last I heard that was still in the works. CKR has had a couple of samples of it, and I think he mentioned the last sample was better, but the early attempts at Cumberland were pretty terrible. Their ebonite is great though!

[JHowell]

That would be SEM, and several of us bought rod from them:

http://www.sem-hitzacker.de/
mailto:info@sem-hitzacker.de

It's great material, with the exception of the initial run of 22mm stock. My understanding is that has been rectified.

What was the problem with the 22mm rods?

[pierredekat]

In need of some ebonite, myself, I was just looking into some other possible suppliers. First, if a person could make use of some 1/2" diameter stock, here's some ebonite rod for $4.00 per foot.

Next, here's a company in the UK called Holbourne Industrial Plastics Ltd that keeps coming up on my google searches. They apparently produce "Ebonite Rod for Fountain Pens, Mouthpieces etc".

On the downside, we here in the US are still going to be hurting with the poor exchange rate and pricey shipping. But on the upside, we would be working with people who speak reasonably good English.

Next, something worth considering from a longterm perspective would be if a bunch of us got together, contacted a US company that does "rubber extrusions", and get them to develop and supply a product for us.

Like, here's a US company that does rubber extrusions and looks promising: National Rubber Corporation. One of the reasons they looked promising to me is that they market "Custom Rubber Wrist Band/ Bracelets", which means that they're in the business of doing small runs of custom items. And they're probably doing it at a pretty reasonable price.

The thing is, in spite of all the outsourcing going on these days, there are still literally hundreds of companies here in the US capable of making what we want.

http://www.iqsdirectory.com/rubber-extrusions/

http://www.medibix.com/CompanySearch.js ... 18&stype=i

http://www.thomasnet.com/products/rubbe ... 803-1.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=extruded ... arch&hl=en

And I for one think it's time we all put our heads and our money together and see if we can't come up with a better way.

Like maybe, if one of us could put together some $1,000 orders and sell them to the rest of us, $100-at-a-time.

Maybe Steve Norse at Vermont Freehand could do something like that -- sell it on Ebay and the whole deal.

[sethile]

What was the problem with the 22mm rods?

It will simply not buff up to the high luster we have come to expect out of good quality ebonite. I'd thought it was just a matter or my process needing to be tweaked, but I could not rectify it no matter how carefully I worked through the stages. Some of it just comes out a little cloudy looking. I've also found a couple of small specs in some of it. Jeff Gracik also got some 22mm rod that did the same thing. He sent it back. I've kept mine and play around with it from time to time. I found that it can make an attractive semi-mat finish that looked great on one pipe.

Anyway, the good news is they fixed whatever caused that, and the issue was apparently limited to that first batch of 22mm stock that went out.

And I for one think it's time we all put our heads and our money together and see if we can't come up with a better way.

Like maybe, if one of us could put together some $1,000 orders and sell them to the rest of us, $100-at-a-time.

Well, it sounds good in theory, but my take on this is as pipe makers we are extremely small potatoes, and likely not worth it. Before SEM there was only one company making this stuff, and they kept threatening to quit. SEM is using a slightly different process they developed. I don't think this is rocket science, but it does apparently take some considerable investment in the process and tooling.

Right now the buzz word in the pipe market is "German Ebonite". Anyone looking at this would have to be darn sure whatever was developed here would be as good or better, and my guess is the companies will find it's not worth the risk for the size of the market. I know I would not want to be the one bank rolling that little venture. I also think collectors would be skeptical until whatever was developed here was proven in terms of how it holds up long term.

I think this is like gas prices. It irks us. We think we are getting gouged and that is really more of an issue to us than the actual cost.

Even buying from PME we are still only paying between $5 and $10 per pipe for the rod to make the stem. That's 1/4 of the cost of top grade briar. It's not a major factor really. You just need to make more expensive pipes. As Todd Johnson pointed out, it's guys in the low end of the hand made pipe market that really take a hit on this. At this point, I'm often in that camp, but hope to slowly crawl out of it.

I'm glad SEM started up and is apparently doing so well. Know we have some options. What really scares me is not being able to get something. Not having to pay a little too much for it.

As to the Euro... It goes both ways. I think the weak dollar has also helped me sell some pipes to new customers in Europe. A few bucks a pipe more for ebonite is not a major issue other than the irksomeness of it

[pierredekat]

Yes, the irkiness factor definitely irks me.

But you do make a good point about the buzz surrounding "German Ebonite". I hadn't really thought about that as a selling point, necessarily, but it probably does contribute to the idea that people are buying something special.

I don't know, though. The one thing that bothers me about the whole ebonite issue is the monopolies. You've got Pipe Makers' Emporium, or you can learn to speak German and go directly to the source.

Seems like there ought to be at least one other choice, you know. And if there are companies that can make a hockey puck -- exact same stuff -- for under a dollar, surely we can do better than $35 for 20 inches of ebonite.

I mean, how many hockey pucks could they be selling?

[Frank]

The shipping and handling charge from SEM was expensive, and the Euro is also very strong against the dollar, so those all have to be factored in. Several of us also had "communications issues". Perhaps that has improved.

Metre length packages are probably considered oversize. The language thing can be a bit of a nuisance, but if you could get them to cut the metre length rods in half, it should reduce the shipping costs if they ship using the German postal service (That would be DHL, not DHL. LOL. Confusing, huh?).

[JHowell]

Melanie at SEM is very pleasant and writes English perfectly well. I think they, as a company, are looking to expand into whatever niches they can find, and so do not object to small markets. I bought 10 meters from them to start making clarinet mouthpieces, met with no attitude at all. I do think one- and two-meter orders are pointless for both parties, might as well deal with PME. Another possibility for small lots is Premal at Smokers Haven -- at one point he had quite a bit of the SEM rods and was selling it. I don't know if he still has it, but even if not, if he were to get enough interest he probably would order more.

[pierredekat]

Okay, just a quick followup.

I contacted Steven at Vermont Freehand, and he said that he had tried to source ebonite, himself, awhile back. And he basically reached a dead end, too, with regard to finding a cheaper source.

But he did say that he was willing to handle the distribution, etc., on a group buy and willing to stock whatever we could come up with, looking forward. So that was a good deal.

And I contacted the English company Holbourne Industrial Plastics, LTD., and they have both black and red/black ebonite rod in stock, priced as follows:

22 mm dia x 1mtr long @ £39.61/per mtr
27mm dia x 1mtr long @ £73.51/per mtr

I'm not sure what the exchange rates are these days, but I would guess this price is comparable to SEM's price.

The one thing I did come away from this with is the belief that Holbourne is the source for "Cumberland": English company, right there next door to Dunhill. That'd be my guess, anyway.

Now then, the next order of business is this other idea I'm kicking around. Just an idea. Thought I would pitch it out there.

But "Vulcanite" and "Ebonite" are basically trade names. And "Cumberland" is another trade name, as well. No doubt if somebody started marketing a similar product and calling it "Cumberland", somebody's attorneys would be contacting somebody else's attorneys, you know.

So what if we put our heads together and came up with a stem material that was better than anything else currently available?

Something like ebonite, but with UV protection to ward off oxidation. Or maybe a plastic with similar characteristics to ebonite? Or something like that?

And in keeping with the German-Ebonite-as-a-selling-point idea, we come up with a trade name for our special stem stock. Call it Stemstock™ or Pipenite™ or something like that. And we make that a selling point on our pipes.

Only this Pipenite™ stuff would be about 1/4 the price of ebonite.

Like I said, just a thought.

[JHowell]

Unless it includes shipping (not even then, actually), that English price is WAY higher than SEM. I bought 10 meters of 33m finished rod, and the price with shipping was just under $700. That's a pretty large size; with regular pipemaking sizes the cost would be less for both the rods and the shipping, probably more like $500. That's just a guess, but it's the same as briar. You reach a point where it makes more sense to buy in quantity; any time you're buying raw materials in ones and twos you'll pay more.

[Nick]

As an intelectual exercise, I love the idea of coming up with a neat new stem material for pipes. But why should we do all the heavy lifting? God knows that there are a ton of other plastics out there. Perhaps we should all just see what new material we can find, see if we cant get a sample and play with it? Who knows? Maybe some chemist has already made something?

[ckr]

The last prices I had from SEM in July were

18 mm 21 €
20 mm 22 €
22 mm 25 €
24 mm 27 €

for 1 meter raw rods, smooth was 4 € extra

Shipping costs were
0 kg - 5 kg = 38,50 €
5 kg - 10 kg = 54,50 €
10 kg - 20 kg = 87,00 €

depending on rod diameter you can figure ABOUT 33-35 rods is just under 20kg. As can be seen 2 or 3 rods incurs a premium for shipping as well as the handling fee. To make it work to your advantage you want 19.5kg shipments and tell them to cut back the order if one of the shipments was not a full package.

When compared to P. E. Hermann (I would think shipping to be about the same):

18 mm 38 €
20 mm 47 €
22 mm 58 €
25 mm 79 €

or even Pipe makers Emporium, I do not see any listed currently but IIRC they were 20 inch rods for about $35 - $45.

It is easy to look back and feel bad about missing out on thier introductory prices, but SEM is still relatively cheap even now. Judging from what the market bears I would think they have room for additional price increases. As has been said, 5 bucks is not a lot for a quality material especially when you consider that a good hand cut stem can add about $75 and more to the price of a pipe.

As for other materials outside the box, I don't believe Random was really very sucessful gaining acceptance for some of the space age plastics from the pipe smoking establishment. I think there is a lot of tradition to buck and even now lucite, to me anyway, seems to be of marginal acceptance but I feel it is becoming more so.

Communications can be frustrating, but I really do not think that I will have the same problems in the future as I would just submit the last shipping cost schedule and ask if it is still accurate.

[JHowell]

I think acrylic is about as good as we can do for a hard rubber substitute. Bakelite has a better tooth feel than acrylic but isn't as strong and will no longer be made no matter how much we want it due to economic and environmental reasons. The various fluorocarbon polymers, teflon, ultem, delrin, suck as stem materials, IMO. They're hard to work, don't polish very well, and are slicker than snot. I think between acrylic and rubber we can do what we need to do. We need an organic chemist to weigh in on why you can't add more stuff to hard rubber to make it not oxidize. I think the chemistry is a bit finicky -- it doesn't take much of a screw-up on the factory's part to make a load of rubber that won't polish, has a funky color, has little brown flecks, etc. And, judging by smell, what oxidizes fastest is sulfur, which you do need some of for vulcanization to take place.

We're lucky to have SEM show up. Get while the gettin's good, I say.

[Frank]

We need an organic chemist to weigh in on why you can't add more stuff to hard rubber to make it not oxidize.

Ashton pipes developed their own stem material which they call, not surprisingly, Ashtonite. I have no idea if it is lucite based or rubber based, but Bill Taylor claims it will never tarnish. He very likely had a chemist develop it for him. He also uses something called Brindle.
Maybe all you need is an industrial spy!

[JHowell]

Hmm. Anybody have an Astonite stem they'd care to leave in the sun for a couple of weeks? I've heard people claim that Cumberland does not oxidize, too. It does, of course, it just doesn't show it as much. When I sold my previous house, the kitchen was a mess, so I tore it out and put in new cabinets. They were just the Home Depot DIY off-the-shelf bits, but they looked way better than what I took out. I had a friend helping me, and when we were installing them I remarked that they seemed OK but I wouldn't expect them to last forever. He said, "If they last long enough, it's the same thing as forever." I think Cumberland kind of falls into that category. If it holds its looks long enough next to black vulcanite, a lot of people will project to infinity and say "Cumberland doesn't oxidize."

I don't know if it was Ashtonite, but I worked on an Ashton stem for a fellow a while ago, and it smelled like vulcanite to me.

[LatakiaLover]

Ashtonite? Um, yeah. Hmmm... I've not only seen but OWN Ashton pipes dated after the "conversion to Ashtonite" announcement that have ordinary vulcanite stems, but 50 cent molded ones. I can show and tell you the mold numbers, in fact.

I know that calling things straight regarding the manufacturers isn't a popular thing in the pipeworld, but there you go. Just as with the filled Dunhill, I don't go looking for this stuff, I just refuse to play along when I happen across it. I guess some of the makers figure that there aren't enough repairmen in the world to make lying to the public much of a risk.

Before the Internet, I suppose it was true.