Squaring mortise and tenon during freehand drilling

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:59 pm

Hello everyone and Happy New Year

New Year's Eve I tried to shape first dill after. I was very satisfied with the shape and I can see why many carvers prefer the freedom they have, without worrying about where the holes are. However, I messed up the whole thing, because I could not square the mortise hole.

Any suggestion on how to do this phase correctly?

I bow my head to those that can perform this task without any alterations afterwards.

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:45 pm

If you mean aligning the hole with the shank, that is done by establishing lines of "longitude" that cross at the front of the pipe, where a center is used in the tailstock to establish one end of the mortise axis and the point of the drill bit the other. Center drill first. If you mean squaring the face of the mortise after it is drilled, the pipe is spun on a mandrel inserted in the mortise. This gives the necessary reference to face the end of the shank square to the mortise.

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:32 pm

Thanks Jack,
That's what I thought.
Another problem, if the mortise has been drilled freehand, and not perfectly angled (the chances of that being great), when you insert the tenon and the stem ends up crooked, can that be fixed?

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:42 pm

Hey Tano,

If you're talking about drilling the mortise at the wrong angle in relation to the shank, then not a lot can be done if it's too far off.

If it's just a bit off, then you can sometimes shape your way out of it.

Rad

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:43 pm

Repairman's perspective:

This issue is my biggest problem when re-stemming hand shaped pipes. A high percentage do not have their mortise aligned with the exterior of the shank. The only recourse is to make the misalignment as camouflaged as possible by "fudging" in other areas to make up the error.

Definitely do your best in this area, guys.

getting it right is an excellent channel marker of a carver's overall skill.

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:33 pm

Well, let me say that I'm wondering whether this drilling after shaping is for me. The mistakes are compounding. First I drilled the air hole off center, same with the mortise. Hacking my way I finally get to the bowl. Using one of Brad's spade bit I drill a hole first with a regular bit so that it will guide me. With firm steady hand I hold the pipe move it towards the spade. Then all hell brakes loose. Could not hold on well enough to complete the job. Final result a broke bowl, half inch from the top. Thats it for me. Its back to the reliable method drill then shape.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:08 pm

Don't be mistaken, this takes practice, and lots of it. I must have killed a dozen cherry blocks before I got the groove right for drilling after shaping. If you've spent your entire experience to date drilling prior to shaping, this is a major shift in procedure and skills.

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:17 pm

Are you using the tailstock center as a guide? I've never had a spoon bit grab and buck. You do want to leave some extra meat for corrective shaping, but it sounds like your axis lines are out of whack. Whatever you do, don't give up after one attempt. Perhaps practice with cheap wood, but there's a learning curve no matter how you make pipes. Unless you're making a straight pipe, I'd suggest doing the mortise before the airhole. Try drilling the mortise, then the bowl, then drill the airhole to connect. It sounds risky, but if you use the actual center of the bowl to aim the airhole you're less likely to miss off to the side. Aim a touch low with the airhole, then deepen the bowl just a shade to correct if necessary. If you miss too high, it's pretty hard to recover from that.

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:27 am

Practice makes perfect, I know.
For the air hole I was using a six inch drill bit mounted on one of the motors.
Drilled a test hole first. I've seen pictures of drillers standing in front of the bit pointing at about their belly button. To drill the bowl some suggest drill press, others lathe, either metal or wood. Is there a preferred way to do it?
Thank for the support and tips.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:10 am

Once you've got the pipe roughed in, and your center lines drawn, it's easiest to use a drill press or lathe to be sure everything is lined up. My preference is to use the lathe. That way I can use a dead center in the tailstock and put the intersection of center lines right on that point, and if I drew the lines right, drilling will come out pretty close to spot on.

I've drilled with the bit chucked in a motor as you describe, but typically only for adjustments after the fact.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:30 am

I've used a lathe and a motor. For the motor though I had it all gerry rigged up. I've attached a laser to the top to line up with the bit, and on the side of the bowl, I taped a level. The lathe was much easier, but the motor was more fun.

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:32 pm

Again, thanks a bunch Guys and all the best in the New Year.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:29 pm

JHowell wrote:Aim a touch low with the airhole, then deepen the bowl just a shade to correct if necessary. If you miss too high, it's pretty hard to recover from that.

Excellent tip, Jack.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:10 am

Tano wrote:Well, let me say that I'm wondering whether this drilling after shaping is for me. The mistakes are compounding. First I drilled the air hole off center, same with the mortise. Hacking my way I finally get to the bowl. Using one of Brad's spade bit I drill a hole first with a regular bit so that it will guide me. With firm steady hand I hold the pipe move it towards the spade. Then all hell brakes loose. Could not hold on well enough to complete the job. Final result a broke bowl, half inch from the top. Thats it for me. Its back to the reliable method drill then shape.

I've had the same results. Bit hammering from hell, bowl bit going badly off-center, grabbing and breaking, etc. I eventually gave it up as a bad job, and went back to an alternative method of shaping first, not having the working time to waste in fiddling with it for however long it might take to master. My conclusion was that it was obvious I was missing something, but I never could figure out what. I've seen numerous videos where the carver will just hold the stummel in a hand and press it on, and the bit goes in like butter, but in my case it was more - Grab, WHAMM, hammerhammerhammer. I do the airhole and mortise drilling freehand, using centerlines, but I still drill the bowl using various custom vises.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:11 pm

Tano wrote:.... Using one of Brad's spade bit I drill a hole first with a regular bit so that it will guide me.

My 2 cents.
Spade bits tend to be more difficult to control. You might have better control with a reground Silver & Deming bit or a round nose milling bit or a spoon bit.

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:44 pm

Hmmmm!!

I don't know whether or not that's the problem. When I drill the bowl with any bit, as I get closer to the designated intersection of bowl and air hole I back off completely to check what is happening. When I reinsert the bit thats when the problem occurs. I can' see how anybody can reinsert a bit freehand back into a hole revolving at whatever speed without it not grabbing the wall and creating an imperfection. Its the reinserting several times that makes the whole thing very imprecise. Anyways, thats what the girl said to the sailor.

Post by **Tyler** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:17 pm

Frank wrote:
Tano wrote:.... Using one of Brad's spade bit I drill a hole first with a regular bit so that it will guide me.
My 2 cents.
Spade bits tend to be more difficult to control. You might have better control with a reground Silver & Deming bit or a round nose milling bit or a spade bit.

I think he meant Brad's spoon bits, since I believe that is all Brad has offered for sale.

Tyler

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:07 am

My apologies, I did mean spoon bit. I corrected the error.

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:44 am

Aim a touch low with the airhole, then deepen the bowl just a shade to correct if necessary. If you miss too high, it's pretty hard to recover from that.

When freehand drilling I first do the Mortise then the airhole and finish off with the tobacco chamber that way I dont drill too deep

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:10 pm

Tano wrote:Hmmmm!!

I don't know whether or not that's the problem. When I drill the bowl with any bit, as I get closer to the designated intersection of bowl and air hole I back off completely to check what is happening. When I reinsert the bit thats when the problem occurs. I can' see how anybody can reinsert a bit freehand back into a hole revolving at whatever speed without it not grabbing the wall and creating an imperfection. Its the reinserting several times that makes the whole thing very imprecise. Anyways, thats what the girl said to the sailor.

Perhaps try replacing the stummel on the bit, apply tailpost center to the depression from previous drilling, hold stummel securely with right hand, turn on lathe with the left. You may already be doing that, but it sounds like you're tilting the stummel slightly to cause the grabbing before the bit can center itself. As with Trever's post a while back, I wonder if your bit has too much material removed. Or perhaps the tailpost is the problem, if it's off center *that* could cause a bind.