Going Pro

[TreverT]

I think that what you have said has some interesting implications for folks that are currently part-time guys that have an eye toward full-time. That is price structuring.

One of the problems which I know you have experienced is the impact of the current flood of part-timers on the buyers' expectations of quality, and this impact on the full-timers. Put simply, there are a lot of guys making pipes today part-time for whom hourly wages aren't an issue, so they are putting a huge amount of hours and finishing time into detailing pipes which sell for low prices, because they don't need the money to live on. This is, in some cases, causing problems for the full-timers because buyers are getting these pipes and thinking that this is the quality level they should expect for $150, when someone who actually has to live on that money can't do anywhere near that amount of labor time on a pipe of the same price. Please don't take this as an attack, however - I am describing the situation for explanation, not accusation. If you sometimes feel a bit cold-shouldered by the full-timers, this may be the reason... folks who have their lives invested in pipemaking are having their dinners literally taken away from them by guys who are just making pipes for beer and pizza money.

Your comments about the talent to make pipes either being there or not is also interesting. "Seeing it" is a good way to describe that. In particular, I wonder if that has anything to do with the lack of training here in the US? I'm just speculating, of course, but I wonder if more hands on comment and example would allow more folks to "see it" over time?
Tyler

I don't think so, IMO at least. Technique can be taught, but the ability to see a good pipe and make it look right seems to be either present or not, and doesn't seem to be learnable in my experience. I have known guys who made 200 pipes and their 200th was just as gawky and awkward and lumpy as their first - their finishing techniques can improve, they learn new tricks and build their own gadgets and improve their staining and so on, but the pipes themselves never rise above that "lumpy amateur" level. You end up looking at the things and thinking, well, it's decent but geez, what a thick bowl join, and look at those weird warbles down the shank, and is it *supposed* to have such an awkward stem? I've spent years doing this and wondering... why don't the makers see these problems? I lost count long ago of the number of amateur pics that I've been sent for criticism, and it was through this experience that I really learned that you can tell who will be good from the very first pipes. The guys who have potential will produce decent work right off... not neccessarily "good" pipes, but their work will show that they are able to see things like attractive lines and form balance and visual elegance. It will be obvious from their work that they know what needs fixing (just not yet how to do it), and will understand how to apply new techniques to this task. The other guys, sadly, will never get it... they don't really see what's wrong with their pipes and so they keep on making them without ever improving. There's nothing wrong with this as long as they're just having fun, but the trouble tends to arise when they try to jump into selling for a living. Paul Perri originally told me this about pipemakers but I didn't believe him at the time. He said you could teach something like 100 guys the techniques step by step but only two of them would actually ever be able to make a good pipe. (This was why he didn't want to bother with me when I first called him. I eventually had to send him photos of my first three pipes, the Bilbo, Twisted Egg, and a sort-of hawkbill-shanked billiard, to convince him. After that he was happy to help. Looking back, I now understand completely both why he was reluctant and just what he was looking for in those first pipe pics) Over time, I learned this myself. After all, out of all the guys who sent me pics and corresponded with me through the old pipemaking website, I tagged you and Todd as the two most promising, and look how that turned out! I know I had very little actual impact, but I still feel a little bit of semi-paternal pride at how well things have gone for both of you since I was first answering your starter questions. And yet, neither of you have gone full-time, so use that as a picture of the odds against survival as a full-timer.... two really talented guys out of a couple hundred able to do really excellent work, and then only one out of every dozen or so of those guys who has the funds, determination, luck, etc to go full-time. Unfortunately, most folks don't want to hear this... what they see is, "Hey, these guys get to play in their workshops for a living, be around pipes all the time, and hang out at pipe clubs and shows as part of their job! Where do I sign up?" I realize I may sound excessively down on this, but there have been a couple of real, genuine tragedies over the past few years where guys have jumped in too deep and ended up losing everything, and that's something no one wants to see happen.

[ArtGuy]

In my experience as both a student and instructor of fine art, I have found that one can teach someone how to recognize good visual design in the same way that you can teach someone how to appreciate fine wine, classical music, poetry or any other art that deals in the abstract. Personaly I consider visual design as much a technical part of creating as I do the actuall drilling and shaping of a pipe.

Once the carver is able to recognize sound visual design (aesthetics), they will be able to produce quality pipes, as long as they are able and/or willing to work hard enough to master the mechanics. However there are plenty of people who are able to understand aesthetic theory but lack the coordination and dexterity to create a well crafted object. These people are called critics.

I do not think you can teach someone creativity. I think existing creativity can be developed in a person but I am not convinced it can be taught.

I very much agree on this point, there are only a few people who have the talent required to execute both the technical and aesthetic aspects of pipe making and thier potiential will many times be evident early on.

There have been some people over the years who were born knowing everything there is to know about pipe carving and/ or painting. If you gathered all of those people up, who have ever lived, you could probably fit them in my studio. All of the rest of use just have to work hard.

[omar_colocci]

folks who have their lives invested in pipemaking are having their dinners literally taken away from them by guys who are just making pipes for beer and pizza money.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I work for a film/advertising producing company here in Brazil. The company spends heavy money in equipment and the team that I'm part of spend hours and hours trying to catch up the knowledge on new technologies for "serious" use, when a bunch of guys appear, not nececssarily talented, with their just-a-little-above-regular PCs, DVCAM and try to compete saying "Hey! We can do that too! I'm on the film business!". Because its new stuff, some potencial costumers give them a try, specially because their prices are way cheaper, and from this two problems arise:

1. The costumers with a critical sense will not continue using their services, but surely will get "used" somehow to not spend the amount of money they used to and will claim lower prices, no matter they can tell the difference of what they are paying for.

2. The costumer with a lower budget and not much critical sense will do the job with the competidor. He may know he's not going to have the "experience of his life" with the final result but believes he can live with that or that the result works (be it true or not), and if he someday dreamed of a "1st class" product, he convinces himself he doesn't need to worry about it for a while because what he paid for does the job, and who knows if he's going to think of it again - another potencial costumer is gone.

I don't believe with pipes or any other service/product the things are much different and the variations of the narrow spectrum examples I used above may apply.

I don't think so, IMO at least. Technique can be taught, but the ability to see a good pipe and make it look right seems to be either present or not, and doesn't seem to be learnable in my experience.

I agree to a certain degree. Care with form and detail may be a good sign, despite of the knowledge of the material and techniques involved being still not fully understood or kown, but I insist that, to some extent of course, one can really "get the mood". Patience, determination and will to improve are really powerful and can boost the quality of any final result over time. of course it may not be enough to make one reach a truely artistic level, since talent is an exponential factor added to the rest and makes anyone go much further.

"Hey, these guys get to play in their workshops for a living, be around pipes all the time, and hang out at pipe clubs and shows as part of their job! Where do I sign up?"

That's the part I gave up understanding concerning all the aspects of the human soul: the illusion of status and glamour.

Despite of my carrer demanding it sometimes (thank God rarely! ), I don't like to play the "glad to see you!!!!!" role with someone who doesn't feel that way about me, for an exemple. All the "marketing attitude" is really consuming and people seem not to get that.

[Nick]

What a wonderful thread guys. Not that I really ever had any vision of going pro. But I love the insight provided. Really gives me an appriciation for what the full times guys go through.

[Tyler]

One of the problems which I know you have experienced is the impact of the current flood of part-timers on the buyers' expectations of quality, and this impact on the full-timers. Put simply, there are a lot of guys making pipes today part-time for whom hourly wages aren't an issue, so they are putting a huge amount of hours and finishing time into detailing pipes which sell for low prices, because they don't need the money to live on. This is, in some cases, causing problems for the full-timers because buyers are getting these pipes and thinking that this is the quality level they should expect for $150, when someone who actually has to live on that money can't do anywhere near that amount of labor time on a pipe of the same price.

This is the first time I have heard this mentioned in the pipe world, and I agree! When I was first getting into pipe making, I spent a considerable amount of time hanging out in the wood turners newsgroup so I could learning wood turning and tools. In that group the issue of pricing was often discussed. An often discussed topic was the issue of fairness in pricing in regards to hobbyist -v- full-timers. The discussion was essentially an ethical one, dealing with the courtesy of the hobbyist to charge in the range of the full-timer so the competition was on equal footing. Since a full-timer's livelihood was at stake, it was of concern to the hobbyist to be fair with pricing and actually RAISE their prices. This produced a market that could support the full-timer. This issue is more pronounced in wood turning -- as opposed to pipe making -- because the quality of bowl or candlestick a part-timer can turn is very correspondent to that of the full-timers. I think there is typically more desparity of quality and talent among pipe makers, so of course, we need to talk about pricing within competitve quality levels. Because I had spent so much time in the wood turning group in an effort to make pipes, I intentionally set my prices in the range of the full-time makers based on conversations with wood turners. (And have been critisized for it!) This is not the norm in the pipe making world though, and think it is an interesting and worthwhile conversation.

I'm at work right now and need to head home. More on later...

Tyler

[KurtHuhn]

Okay, this thread has me thinking. As far as I know, there are only a handful of guys that have pipes priced in my range - Me, Rad Davis, Random, and a couple others. I price most of my pipes just below $100 because that is what I felt I should be charging after looking at the prices of established makers.

Since I'm a relative newcomer (only been selling pipes to the general publiuc for about a year, been making them for a couple years) I also didn't feel it was "appropriate" for me to price my pipes up there with the fulltimers. First, I'd never sell any. Second, I have no delusions of being able to produce a pipe of the same caliber as the likes of Mark Tinsky and others. However, I'm confident in my abilities, and I've had some good feedback from "the public". I *know* my pipes smoke well, and I'm fairly certain that they look good too.

I've been told by a couple clients (mostly repeat customers) that there's a mental block at about $100 - a glass ceiling of sorts. Lots and lots of folks can afford a pipe that costs less than $100, but when the price of a pipe goes up above that, people are hesitant to drop the cash.

Opinions? Should I raise my prices?

[KurtHuhn]

Ah, but my day job makes me want to commit a cardinal sin....

I have no delusions of being able to support myself on pipe income. My family situation (wife, two kids) pretty much means I'll be a part-timer for several more years - unless something magical happens.

Here's to magic! *raises beer*

[TreverT]

I've been told by a couple clients (mostly repeat customers) that there's a mental block at about $100 - a glass ceiling of sorts. Lots and lots of folks can afford a pipe that costs less than $100, but when the price of a pipe goes up above that, people are hesitant to drop the cash.

Opinions? Should I raise my prices?

I can offer my opinion from both my direct sales experience and my retail shop experience. FWIW, I don't believe there's any glass ceiling - there are plenty of buyers above the $100 range, and if anything, those buyers are actually less hesitant to buy than the folks looking for cheaper pipes. But, the difference is that when you cross that first $100 mark, you are leaving the world of the casual buyer and moving into the world of the educated collector. Our sales here are split right down the middle in two different universes. We sell lots of factory brands in the retail shop for $30-$85, and we sell lots of handmade high grade work to collectors around the world for prices up to $1200 or more. Generally, the people who stop in and think that anything aove $100 is just unbelievable are the folks who just don't know that much about pipes - they may have smoked for 50 years but they've never investigated the world of collecting, they don't know the range that's available, they're not interested in it from an artistic perspective, etc. They just want something that looks decent to smoke. That's the glass ceiling crowd.

To move upwards, you start dealing with a more educated and critical group of buyers who are often interested in a lot more things pipe-ish, and they have specific ideas of good quality and of what doesn't rate. It isn't any more difficult to sell to this group, however, as long as the pipes warrant the prices. These are the buyers who will want to know what kind of briar you use and how your work has evolved over the years, as opposed to, "Can you come down to $70 on that $85 pipe?" Don't fret over the idea of "affordability", though - people who tell you what is and isn't affordable are just telling you what they personally want to pay, and that's usually at least 30% less than the average market price Think of the silliness of this - a guy says he cannot imagine paying $300 for a pipe and nobody could afford that... but he's got a TV and a VCR and a DVD player that all cost significantly more, so he IS able to afford items of that price. What he doesn't see is that the $500 TV set will die in 10 or 15 years and he'll have to buy another one, while the $500 pipe is a one-of-a-kind creation by a dedicated artisan, and it will still be working when he is 80 just as well as it is today. So, selling higher-end work is just a matter of connecting with the market properly. You have to-
*explain (and with good reasons!) to that market why your work is priced where it's at, and
*meet the quality expectations of that market in terms of fit & finish, artistry, or whatever.

The basic rule of selling is that if you can do these two things, you can sell any item at any price - if you sell it properly and it is good enough for its price, you can sell a $10,000 pipe if you want to. If something isn't selling, then one of these rules is being broken - either potential buyers don't understand why it is priced so high, or the quality just isn't equal to the price.