Perfect stem fit sign of quality?

[Charl]

Somewhere (can't remember where) I read that some people are of the opinion that one of the factors contributing to a good quality pipe, is the fact that you can turn the stem 180 degrees and still get a perfect fit.
Of course in some instances the shape of the stem makes it impossible, but would you say, if the shape of the stem allows it, it is required of a good artisan?
What do you think of this statement?

[Källman]

It would be proof of that the maker of the pipe used careful measurement and good methods of drilling. I think, in the case of pipe making, a quality usually comes with another. Many things affect the smoking directly, but the small thigs that makes the pipe what it is, is proof of good craftmanship, which is something every experienced maker should be able to deliver.

[KurtHuhn]

Let's not get carried away in thinking that the "180-degree rotation of a stem test" is a dependable sign of craftsmanship or quality. Unless you're paying megabucks, you can't always expect that feature - which is what it really is, a "feature".

As a pipe maker, there are things you can do to help create this feature in your pipes - turn and drill everything (including shank) on a lathe is one of them. If you don't own a lathe, you can turn the stem as you're sanding in order to get the perfect fit. All of this adds cost, either in the expense of buying equipment or in time spent sanding. Neither of which is wrong or bad - as long as your customers are willing to pay for your time and equipment. This can be difficult until you get the point where you've established your name in the business - and even afterwards as well. Sometimes the target cost of a given pipe can determine how much time you can spend on it. For instance, if you're using pre-turned bowls and factory stems on an affordable line of pipes, your time spent making sure that the outside lines up is probably better spent re-drilling the internals and working the airway so it's just right, and getting the stem "good enough" is usually good enough. Especially if your target price is in the $100 range.

I'd suggest taking everything you read on the Internet with a grain of salt - including what I typed above. Trust your own experiences and observations first.

[wdteipen]

Good question and thanks for asking it. I've been puzzling over this myself. Since I don't yet own a lathe I have been toiling over this issue. I think I've worked out a few tricks to help obtain this level of quality without expending too much time and effort. Hearing Kurt's response is quite a relief, though. It seems to me that, since you really don't smoke a pipe with the stem oriented but one way it shouldn't be a make or break issue, as Kurt points out, on more economic pipes. Funny thing though. I picked up a pipe at the Columbus Pipe Show that had a bamboo stem. I noticed and pointed out to the seller that he had the stem on upside down. It was a straight stem and was difficult to tell but you could see a very slight lip on each side of the pipe. He had the price sticker on the bottom side of the stem. At first he argued that it just wasn't so but after close inspection he agreed. The pipe was priced in the $400+ price range. Needless to say, I was quite encouraged.

[kbadkar]

I say don't worry about it at all. As Kurt mentioned, it's just a feature, and one you don't use at that... typically, it's a feature that proves that the pipe was mostly "machine" made (like Dunhill), rather than hand crafted. I don't think too many artisans fuss over that "feature"... they should be more interested in the aesthetic flow of the pipe, instead of focusing on an inconsequential detail. Although right and left symmetry is important, top and bottom symmetry isn't.

[Christopher Brunton]

Well, I'm going to try to answer this question and Charl's other post from today 'When to start selling?' from the same standpoint.

I'm new here, so for what this is worth, these are two topics I talked with Mimmo about last month when I was in Italy. I'll tell you what he told me.

He pick up one of my pipes and the first thing he did was twist the stem upside down and say (something to the effect of) 'come on, you can do better than this!'

He's right. I can and usually do. I work my way around my pipes from rough sanding through finishing many times and it's not That difficult to get the stem centered. But, this was a pipe I was keeping and I didn't think it was worth the time to get it just right. Good enough was good enough for me. (Tells you what I think of myself, eh?;-)

So, I dunno, I think it's a pretty important detail that, when efficiently done, can show a degree of, uh, I don't know, attention to pretty important details...something I look for in a pipe. I think he was right and I told him so. When I made a pipe with him the next day, I made sure I did get it centered. Some people do expect it.

Course, I'm no pro, and this is just how I see it these days. Next week I'm liable to change my mind. Maybe.

-chris

[KurtHuhn]

And this is the crux of the discussion, I think. If you're willing to work at it, using the expensive machinery, and spend the time, you need to be able to charge for it. And that's fine - trust me, there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think it's not a valid undertaking. It's just that, sometimes, there's better things to focus on than whether the stem can be rotated through 360 degrees and maintain a hair's edge symmetry. The way I do this is to drill and shape everything on a lathe. That way I know that it's all going to line up pretty much dead nuts from the get-go. Without a lathe, though, it would add a significant amount of time to the process.

Like all things related to doing something for a living, you need to pick out the really important bits and focus on those. But, don't take it from me, find the audience that you want to sell to, and find out what *they* want.

[kbadkar]

So, I dunno, I think it's a pretty important detail that, when efficiently done, can show a degree of, uh, I don't know, attention to pretty important details...

-chris

That's a bit tautological. It's an important detail, why? Because some people look for it? Personally, I always put my stems in right way up.

I agree that for balance and symmetry, meat to the right and left of the tenon should be the same, but for the up and down axis, I don't see any reason other than you are trying to sell the pipe to someone who cares about such things.

Still, it's not too hard to accomplish - just don't fudge with it too much after shaping on the lathe. Since I don't often make or purchase round shanks, it seems silly that such a criteria for "craftsmanship" exists. Ovals and diamonds, now that's tough to get spot on rightside up and upside down. I don't think any oval or diamond shanks my in collection, factory-made or hand-crafted would pass, but that doesn't change my perception of their quality. I wonder if anyone makes diamond shanks that align perfectly every 90 degrees, now that would be a sign of... a cleary obsessive personality with too much time.

[Christopher Brunton]

So, I dunno, I think it's a pretty important detail that, when efficiently done, can show a degree of, uh, I don't know, attention to pretty important details...

-chris

That's kind of a joke, actually. What I'm saying is that the only thing having a perfectly centered tenon does is show attention to detail. Didn't know I had to spell it out, sorry.

I don't turn anything on the lathe except tenons. But, if I'm making a symmetrically round bowl it's still got to be, well, symmetrical and round, right? That big hole is going to be in the center (usually) of the big round piece of wood. I do this by constantly turning the pipe as I sand it. I do the same thing when I shape the stem, except I sometimes check for symmetry by turning the stem.

Normally it's not any more difficult to do one than the other. But, here's the thing I've noticed, and the reason why I try to get the tenon centered, when efficiently feasible. When a stem isn't centered (and I'm sure someone will disagree with me here) it shows when you sight down the stem and look at the bowl. Basically, if the stem is not centered, the shank will look, to one degree or another, crooked in relation to the bowl. Do other people look at their pipes this way? I dunno, but I do.

So, that's why I try to center everything up, because I like it that way, not because other people do. If I can do it without wasting too much time, I do.

-chris

[Frank]

Basically, if the stem is not centered, the shank will look, to one degree or another, crooked in relation to the bowl. Do other people look at their pipes this way? I dunno, but I do.

Chris, I'm sure most of the guys aren't referring to a large difference like 1/64", which would probably be noticeable when siting down the stem/shank. They're referring to about a hair's difference, a few thou, which really wouldn't be noticeable, with the stem turned correct side up/down.

Incidently, I have a Dunhill second, sold as Hardcastle, that has a 1/16" difference when the stem is turned 180 degrees!!

[Charl]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Interesting stuff!

[kbadkar]

So, I dunno, I think it's a pretty important detail that, when efficiently done, can show a degree of, uh, I don't know, attention to pretty important details...

-chris

That's kind of a joke, actually. What I'm saying is that the only thing having a perfectly centered tenon does is show attention to detail. Didn't know I had to spell it out, sorry.

... So, that's why I try to center everything up, because I like it that way, not because other people do. If I can do it without wasting too much time, I do.

-chris

Sorry, Chris, I didn't mean to be snipy, even though it came out that way. You don't need to spell it out, I caught your joke. I do agree with you in many ways. In fact, I just twisted a bunch of stems tonight on various traditional shapes and almost without exception, the ones I had percieved to have achieved better visual balance had better stem symmetry when spun. The awkward pieces were very off. That goes for diamond, oval, or round. None were perfect, many were very close. On the round stem/shank pieces I've made, I was easy enough to pay attention to keeping it round after the lathe and through the sanding by spinning the stem and adjusting lightly here and there... so why not? In the end its not perfect at 90 or 180, only your finger can feel the difference here and there, but that's from whistling while you buff? You are right, one must consider up and down to see left and right. In fact, I flipped the stem occasionally on all pipes I've made (which is not that many), just to see how things are lining up on either side. It is important to spin the stem and check for symmetry as a guideline, but not necessarily a rule, in my opinion.

[Källman]

I think this has to do with what details you add to work depending on price. Clearly every pipe is the result of calcultion between time spent on making and aimed price class. You pick a block, decide what qualities its gonna have and how you motivate those qualities with the right price.

Perhaps the 180-perfect-fit-stem is one of those things many crafters decide to skip since it doesnt pay off as well as other things you can spend time on. Are there any makers that put alot of effort into this? Perhaps if you find a good method for it, it could be well worth it and become one of the trade marks buyers look for in your pipes.

Imho it all boils down to careful calculation on how you want to build your network of customers. How to attract them etc.

[Tyler]

This is an interesting topic, and has garnered interesting responses.

There are a lot of details that distinguish a high grade pipe from all others. The attention to these details, along with the aesthetics of the pipe, are the criteria that are used to determine if indeed a pipe is a high grade or not. Many of the details are unnecessary to the function of the pipe.

A stem that can be flipped to illustrate a perfectly round shank is one of those "unnecessary" details. As is a polished mortise and shank face; as is perfectly centered entrance of the draught hole into the bowl; as is a perfectly polished airway; as is a tobacco chamber sanded to 800 grit; as is ANY part of the pipe sanded to 800 grit; etc. and etc.

Some of the posts here appear to suggest that this is a ridiculous thing to look for in our pipe making. I fail to see how this is any more ridiculous than many of the other details we all demand from our pipes. Some buyers care about this, others do not. Do we have to bow to the desires of a few? Of course not. Is it is sign of quality? Sure.

Part of the negativity about this "feature" seems to be the assumption that expensive tools are needed to accomplish it. Not true! Despite having a lathe (two actually), I don't use it to accomplish a stem that fits as described. It is one of the last things I do, and it is done thusly:

Since the stem fits perfectly "right side up." (You were shaping with the stem in place weren't you?) you need only worry about "upside down." To do so flip the stem over and mark with a pencil the area of the shank that is above the stem. I mark it with line that extend along the shank, and the higher the shank edge rises above the stem, the longer the line in that spot. Generally there will be a bell curve of parallel line running along the shank after I've marked the high area. Then flip the stem back over, and sand the high spot by hand, being more aggressive in the area with the longest lines. Rinse. Repeat. Rinse. Repeat. It's not too long before it fits just right no matter how you orient the stem.

Let me add, I would not take the time to do this for $100 pipes. This is the sort of time-consuming detail that makes $800 pipes, $800 pipes.

In the FWIW department, it is my understanding that the White Spot of Dunhill was developed because of this very "feature." Dunhill was apparently making such precise stems, it was impossible to tell if a stem was upside down or right-side up on a straight pipe with a round stem. To remedy that, a white dot was inlayed on the top of the stem, removing all doubt. Amazing how an iconic logo can develop, no?


Tyler

P.S. If you have one of my pipes and it happens to have a straight, round shank, you will likely be disappoint if you "test" it. I learned that collectors look for this (it never crossed my mind) and how to do it very late in my "career."

[KurtHuhn]

Are there any makers that put alot of effort into this? Perhaps if you find a good method for it, it could be well worth it and become one of the trade marks buyers look for in your pipes.

For my two higher grades I take the time, when the stem and shank shape necessitate it. For my countryman line, I just make sure the pipe looks right from the outside.

Of course, I only recently figured out the "easy" way to do it, so earlier examples of my work don't have this feature.

[Källman]

Feel free to share the method if you want to. I would surely like to know! Everyone has their trade secrets tho. I understand if you want to keep it.

[kkendall]

<standard disclaimer="on">
When a stem has a logo that indicates orientation, then the 180 degree test is kind of moot since it won't be smoked in the upside-down position. When the stem has a bend (regardless of how slight), that serves the same purpose as the stem logo. It indicates the orientation of the stem.

Until recently, I've never really considered this as a feature to address since about everything I did had a bent stem. So far, I've made 2 pipes where I was paying attention to the stem orientation since the stems were straight and there was no visual indicator as to the orientation (like a bend or a flat or a ____)

I didn't find it all that hard to do and I felt better letting it go to a customer knowing that regardless of how he inserted the stem, it lines up with the shank, but only in 2 positions (even thought it was round). A 360 degree test (to me) is a rediculous effort. But that's me.

I was discussing this with a friend with an $1100 Dunhill in his hand. Out of curiosity, he turned the stem 180 to see. Sure enough, it was far enough off that I could SEE it from across the table. Made me feel a whole lot better about the ones I recently finished!

[KurtHuhn]

Feel free to share the method if you want to. I would surely like to know! Everyone has their trade secrets tho. I understand if you want to keep it.

My secret? It's not really a secret. I shape the first 1/8 to 1/4 inch of the shank on the lathe for bent pipes, and pretty much the entire shank for straight pipes. That ensures the shank is perfectly round. I also shape the first inch or so of stem on the lathe as well, ensuring that is round. To make sure it's close to the size of the shank, I use a digital calipers, and allow myself a flexibility of a couple hundredths of an inch. Once you get it down, it's not that hard at all, even on a wood lathe.

I also rough sand the shank of the pipe to remove tooling marks, to about 220 grit. The first inch or so of stem gets sanded down to the same grit. What you're left with is just finish sanding in those areas.

For oval or diamond stems, I flip the stem 180 degrees a couple times and sand it through. Easy peasy.

[kbadkar]

In the FWIW department, it is my understanding that the White Spot of Dunhill was developed because of this very "feature." Dunhill was apparently making such precise stems, it was impossible to tell if a stem was upside down or right-side up on a straight pipe with a round stem. To remedy that, a white dot was inlayed on the top of the stem, removing all doubt. Amazing how an iconic logo can develop, no?

I love that story. Not sure if it plays out though. I have only 4 Dunnys - a bulldog, a canadian, a sitter billiard, and a classic billiard. The canadian, though a '32 root with cumberland stem, was way off. The others (40s-60s) were close (left-right on the sitter, and all 90s on the diamond), but Comoy's Traditions in the same shape consistently outperformed the Dunhills in alignment. Although estate, none of the above tested pipes showed signs of aggressive buffing.

I've spent extra time on an oval pre-form stem and a handcut shank to have 180 reversibility. I got pretty close (using the technique Kurt described), but the pre-form was so lopsiped, I stopped before near perfection because the oval was getting too flat. Anyway, 360 rounds and 180 ovals are certainly attainable with attention to that detail, but has anyone made or or own a diamond or square shank that is 90 degrees perfect 4 times around?... I'm just curious where carvers (artists?) draw the line.

[KurtHuhn]

has anyone made or or own a diamond or square shank that is 90 degrees perfect 4 times around?... I'm just curious where carvers (artists?) draw the line.

I did - once. And it was purely by accident. I finished sanding the stem (a preform) and shank of a bulldog, took the stem out to give the shank face a couple passes with paper, and I couldn't figure out which was was up on the stem when I went to put it back in.