Wood Dye Source

[Mike Messer]

I just discovered this source for Wood Dyes which may be really good.
W.D. Lockwood Co. NYC, a real manufacturer since way back, many colors, buy direct from: http://www.wdlockwood.com/
or more conveniently from an online store, in Brooklyn, NY:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/
Very preliminary at this point. I have only tried one color in the water base, and one in the alcohol based, and they look and perform really nice, for contrast staining.
Not expensive, about $7 - $10 per oz. of powder, makes 1 quart of dye. I'm just making 4 fluid oz. with 1/8 oz. by weight of the powder, a bit of a chore to mix the powders, but I think it may be worth the trouble.
If I am not mistaken the J.E. Moser dyes sold by http://woodworker.com/ are actually W.D. Lockwood dyes, repackaged a little nicer in jars, and about 15% to 40% more expensive. The W.D. Lockwood dyes are vacuum packaged in heavy plastic envelopes.

They have one set of water based colors called "Fiber Reactive" you may not want to try. Although I have read that Fiber Reactive dyes are very good because they actually react and chemically combine with the cellulose wood fibers, the information said they have no shelf life when mixed, and must be used immediately. Not so with the regular dyes.

[Frank]

Very preliminary at this point. I have only tried one color in the water base, and one in the alcohol based, and they look and perform really nice, for contrast staining.

Could you post a couple of pics of your results. I'm curious to see how good the contrast is. Also, how well do the colours stay on/in the briar during final buffing?

[Mike Messer]

The images are of a Contrast Staining test on a cheap, flawed, briar second block.
My sanding is not meticulous or perfect.
Disc Sanded 40, 60, 120 to remove dark weathered surface, expose light wood, and smooth surface a bit.
Hand Sanded 220, 400, 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, 4/0 Emery paper.
Wet the block, then dry.
Sanded 2000, 4/0 Emery paper.
Then applied the W.D. Lockwood dyes as the base color.
Left side: Water Base #34 Col. Red, Dark (Mahogany) (a bit diluted)
Right side: Alcohol Base #189 Red Mahogany
When Dry, Sanded 400 until light grain is exposed, Then 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, 4/0 Emery.
I then applied Fiebing Leather Dye, Yellow (with a trace of Red in it) as the top color.
(Note: I have W.D. Lockwood Yellow and Red ordered but have not received them yet, else I would not have used the Fiebing's Yellow-Red, unless I had a problem with the Lockwood Yellow-Red).
After the Yellow dried, I applied a .5 lb. mix of Platina Shellac, wiped off with alcohol immediately. Then when dry, Lightly Sanded 2000, 4/0 Emery paper. Then Polished with Tripoli and Wh. Diamond, wiping each after with dry tissue. Then Carnauba waxed.



In another test (no images) with just the two mahoganies applied on a maple block, and dried, the water base would not wipe off, not a trace. The alcohol base did, but just a faint trace, nothing like what you get with the Fiebing's.
All of my wipe off tests during or after polishing and waxing would be inconclusive since my buffing wheels are contaminated by earlier use of Fiebing's dyes, and I have not cleaned or replaced them yet.

Important Note: I did an earlier test using Fiebing's Mahogany for the base coat, and Fiebings - Yellow with Red for the top coat. I was working in Fluorescent light. When the Yellow-Red was applied it developed a "yikkie" green tint. Appeared the same in sunlight, but it did not look bad if the light source was ordinary tungsten light bulbs.
So, be sure to check you color tests in a variety of lights, Tungsten, Fluorescent, Daylight, and also in direct bright light and dimmer lights.

[Frank]

Both stainings look good, but the alcohol based looks slightly darker, perhaps a slightly deeper penetration.

[KurtHuhn]

To get a really strong contrast, try applying your stain starting at around 220-grit. The wood is much more receptive to coloring at that stage. If you sand all the way to 2000 grit before staining, the wood will resist stain application since you've effectively closed up the wood.

[TRS]

I'm getting a better effect from the alcohol side as well. Thanks for the test/pics.

[bikedoctor]

Thanks for sharing Mike.

[baweaverpipes]

My sanding is not meticulous or perfect.
Disc Sanded 40, 60, 120 to remove dark weathered surface, expose light wood, and smooth surface a bit.
Hand Sanded 220, 400, 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, 4/0 Emery paper.
Wet the block, then dry.
Sanded 2000, 4/0 Emery paper.

Out of curiosity, why do you sand with 1000, 1500, 2000 and 4/0 Emery paper?
I'm almost certain my hands are rougher than 2000 grit!
Kurt is correct, staining at 2000 grit will not produce the desired result.

[Mike Messer]

Out of curiosity, why do you sand with 1000, 1500, 2000 and 4/0 Emery paper?
I'm almost certain my hands are rougher than 2000 grit!
Kurt is correct, staining at 2000 grit will not produce the desired result.

I go on up to 2000 and 4/0 to get a smoother, glassy, mirror finish when the pipe is later polished with brown tripoli, white diamond, and carnauba wax.
I am still experimental, and not clear about how many grades to use or how far to jump between grades, or how 2000 compares to 4/0 except 4/0 is a lot finer, and I don't know exactly what Brown (Red) Tripoli and White Diamond are in comparison. I have read that they vary from mfgr to mfgr. Tripoli maybe about 7000 and friable, meaning it gets finer on the buffing wheel as you are using it.
I think Kurt was saying to apply the stain earlier to get better contrast.

From Article by Serge Dasara
"... sand with successively finer grades until you reach 8,000. I can not stress the importance of taking small steps - it is this that gives the mirror finish. In fact the most common mistake I see is going from 600 or 1000 paper right to the buffer with Tripoli!"

I thought he was nuts, I couldn't find any grades higher than 600 at most stores. Then I found the 1000, 1500, 2000 at an auto parts store, and I added them to the sequence, and I think he's right... removing the finer and finer scratches to get the glassy, mirror finish.
(see later posts for more about grade sequences)

[Mike Messer]

Both stainings look good, but the alcohol based looks slightly darker, perhaps a slightly deeper penetration.

I did not measure the powder very well. I spread the ounce of dye powder on a piece of paper and divided it visually into eighths, and then used one-eighth in four ounces of water. Same with the alcohol version. So, this may account for the differences in intensity or darkness. Not Sure, it could be what you said, also.
I have a scales, now, and will be, hopefully, more accurate. Probably a whole lot less messy.

edit 9-25-09
I now have a scale, and I weighed the remaining, approx. 7/8 oz. of the two dyes, and the water-soluble package was considerably heavier than the alcohol-soluble package, so this may account for the color differences, but I haven't done any other application or visual tests yet to confirm this. I've been busy doing some other stuff.

[RadDavis]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure if Serge has ever made a pipe.

Most pipe makers sand to 600 grit or so. Once you go much higher than that, you are going backwards when you go to the buffing wheel.

In fact the most common mistake I see is going from 600 or 1000 paper right to the buffer with Tripoli!"

The above statement by Serge is ridiculous.

The most common mistake is not sanding the pipe totally and completely, before proceeding to the next higher grit. As long as you do this, 600 grit will give you a nice glassy finish on a smooth pipe.

I sand at 24 (rough shape), 120, 220, 320, 600 then stain, buff and wax.

Rad

[Mike Messer]

Thanks, Rad, that does sound a lot easier than what I am doing.
M.M.

[Sasquatch]

IF you consider the fact that brown tripoli is usually around 800 grit, sanding beyond say, 600 and then going to tripoli is a step backwards, grit wise.

I sand for shape with 180, and start staining, then sand at 220 until the scratches from various files and shapers are gone, then move to 320 or 400, then hit the tripoli. Like Bruce says - the issue is sanding PROPERLY at each grit level. You cannot fake good sanding, especially on something as hard as briar. One reason to stain between sandings is you get to see how bad of a job of sanding you did!

But spending hours and hours with a piece of "sandpaper" that has some utterly microscopic grit in it is a waste of time.

FWIW, 0000 will do a lot more damage to a piece of wood than tripoli, in my experience. I don't use it for anything but stripping furniture.

[ToddJohnson]

Who, pray tell, is Serge and why would he know anything at all about making or finishing pipes? 8000 grit sandpaper is plain nonsense if it even exists. It must have the same approximate sanding power as organic cotton diapers which, in pipemaking, are great for wiping down the window of your blast cabinet. Actually, now that I think about it, we do have a baby in the house. Perhaps I'll start sanding to 7000 and then finish by rubbing the pipe against her butt. Maybe that will be sufficient for "Serge."

TJ

[RadDavis]

Perhaps I'll start sanding to 7000 and then finish by rubbing the pipe against her butt. Maybe that will be sufficient for "Serge."

TJ

You've obviously been making a very common mistake in not doing this.

I think Serge used to be Sonam on ASP.

Rad

[RadDavis]

A further note:

Serge refers to Micro Mesh grits. Micro Mesh 1800 grit is the equivalent of regular old sand paper 600 grit.

This doesn't change the fact that he is full of shit.

Rad

[JHowell]

A further note:

Serge refers to Micro Mesh grits. Micro Mesh 1800 grit is the equivalent of regular old sand paper 600 grit.

This doesn't change the fact that he is full of shit.

Rad

You mean my 12000 grit micro mesh is really only 6000 grit? Arrrrrrgh!

Jack

[Frank]

A further note:

Serge refers to Micro Mesh grits. Micro Mesh 1800 grit is the equivalent of regular old sand paper 600 grit.

This doesn't change the fact that he is full of shit.

Rad

Hey, hold up there a sec!!! He learned to use a buffer 4 decades ago and became a serious professional hobbyist in watch tinkering and luthi... luthe... frigging guitar making. That means he really knows all about pipemaking. OK?

[kbadkar]

Mike, I know this is all getting ugly, but hang in there, there's a lesson to be learned, and once over the hump, you will make a pipe that you are happy with.

Worry less about process and more about producing.

[KurtHuhn]

That should be the main message for all beginners.
- first make a pipe.
- then focus on making pipes that smoke well
- next focus on making pipes that look good
- now work on refining and perfecting the process

Trying to do that last step first is going to lead only to frustration. And frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.