Lathe experts (Jack?!?)

[Tyler]

Guys,

I've been watching for a decent metal lathe near me for quite some time. This part of the country just doesn't seem to have such things pop up very often. Ebay currently has a decent looking little Atlas that is not exactly close by, but is not too far out of the way for a trip I am taking in a few weeks. Obviously pictures alone are less-than-ideal way to buy a lathe, but it is what it is. At $400 (at this point) it is not a terribly expensive risk, still, I want a lathe to use, not recondition.

So here it is. Pics seem decent:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1182

Any thoughts? See any red flags? What should I look for on a use machine like this?

Thanks!

Tyler

[JHowell]

Is it close enough to have a look? It might be okay for $400, but any more than that and -- if you really don't want a project -- you're better off saving the extra for a new Jet or Grizzly. Having lots of machines and having gotten in a jam a few times has changed how I look at them. I used to look at old machines and see their potential. Now, I see problems.

I know there are some devoted owners of Atlas lathes here, but I'm not a big fan. They were lightly built home/hobby machines (with very few exceptions) and when they are used in an industrial setting, bad things happen to them. The ways are flat and fairly soft, so they wear quickly and the wear is difficult to compensate with the gibs. You can see the worn surfaces on this lathe -- the outside of each way looks grooved and dull. Looks like abrasive damage, too. Of course, any pipe maker is going to use abrasive on his lathe, and I suppose one way of dealing with that is to get one that is already screwed up.

Looking at the machine, I see no tailstock. Why wouldn't you take a picture with the tailstock on? Looking at the picture with the tailstock and the other parts, it doesn't look quite right. It may be lighting, but it looks like the wrong color. And it may be perspective, but it looks too small, and the cavity under the barrel looks too square. Hmmmm.

This machine looks like it's in some kind of a welding or fab shop. It's got new tooling with it, so it's been used. I would guess they got a new lathe, and this machine is the reason they got one. No Atlas lathe gets to that age with any use without significant wear. You may be able to make pipes with it, but the cross slide and compound screws will be sloppy, the tailstock (if it's the right one) will need to be shimmed up to compensate for wear, etc. It won't be tight, it may not be right, but it *may* be usable. I'd try to look at it first.

Good luck,

Jack

edit -- I see, a trip you're taking in a few weeks. I dunno. I wouldn't want to talk you out of something you could use for $400, but it's not a clear green light, either. Might want to ask about the tailstock.

[Tyler]

Jack,

Thanks! Great evaluation and info.

Just the sort of advice I was looking for. I'll pass!

I'm wanting this lathe to both make pipes and bamboo fly rods (including making ferrules and reel seat hardware). I have made both using my Taig, but I'd like more machine with more space to work. Is there a particular model Grizzly or Jet you recommend? I'm afraid I'm woefully uneducated on these machines.


Tyler

[JHowell]

I've never owned a Grizzly lathe, or a Jet. Here's a Grizzly I've been considering, maybe someday:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-x-36 ... athe/G4003

Why? Collets. I've got quite a bit invested in 5C collets and I LOVE them. I wouldn't consider a machine that wouldn't take a 5C through the spindle. Also, hardened ways -- it's the smallest Grizzly that mentions them, and it's very important to me for the machine's longevity. There's a slightly shorter model for $100 less, but it's nice to be able to get the carriage out of the way. That's more money than either of us would like to spend, but it's the low end for a pro machine. As Todd pointed out in another thread, machines that are really built to take two shifts a day, five days a week are more like $4-5k and up, making pipes we can get by with less because we don't really use them that hard.

I think Grizzly does a fairly good job of pricing machines. For more money you generally get a bigger, more capable lathe, and, while they're basically selling the same import stuff as everyone else so it's *possible* to get a piece of junk, they seem to keep a pretty close eye on the competition and to care about their reputation. I've heard a couple of stories from people who were dissatisfied with the machines but still had good things to say about the customer service, and it's kind of like peanut butter, there's a certain percentage of insect parts no matter what brand you buy.

Every company seems to have a $1K 9X20, and I wouldn't go smaller than that. The Jet BDM920 has a few owners here. I think Rad has a couple, and they don't seem to hold him back. Todd says nice things about his Knuth lathes, I think they have a competitive 9X20. I ordered their catalog a few years ago, they look nice but are still imports with the same strengths and weaknesses at more or less the same price points. A 9 or 10X20 in the $1K range is still a hobby machine and (for me) which one to buy would depend on price and where I had to go to get it. Grizzly is shipping pretty much everything for free to move it, which is helpful. $1K gets a 10X22:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22 ... athe/G0602

On the other hand, I know a guy in Denver who just bought a beautiful 13" LeBlond for $1000. You can still get more machine for less buying used, but it's not a sure thing and there's nobody to call and have the machine picked up if it doesn't work.

Jack

[JHowell]

By the way, I'm waiting for final digital proofs on The Lovely Reed reprint. Should be available by the end of October.

Jack

[Tyler]

By the way, I'm waiting for final digital proofs on The Lovely Reed reprint. Should be available by the end of October.

Jack

WOW!! That's exciting. Will it be available through standard book outlets, or do I need to order one from you?

Now getting your book won't preclude buying a lathe too!!

I participate on several bamboo rod making forums. This would be big news on those. Can I say something, or would you prefer I keep a lid on this?

Tyler

[JHowell]

It will be available from me; I'll have a web page for orders as soon as it's delivered, price will be the original retail of $50 plus S&H. I assumed that news of it is out there already, but if not I'd wait for Al Kube to announce it. As the old saying goes, there's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip.

Jack

[Frank]

Grizzly is shipping pretty much everything for free to move it, which is helpful.

Free shipping is always a plus, especially on large/heavy items like lathes, etc.

If purchased from a state other than the one you live in, you also save on sales tax. (It's now 9.75% in Los Angeles, grrr )

[Tyler]

Thanks for the lathe advice. I think I am going to start saving for the Grizzly.

I'll keep quiet on the book. Mark me down for one. I'll order as soon as it is available.

While I'm saving and researching, any collet advice? Brand and type? Whether sets are a good idea? etc.

[JHowell]

Hardinge makes the best collets, but they're expensive. Import sets are OK, but for pipe making you'll wind up using 4 or 5 collets most of the time, and they may or may not be ones that come in the set. Your rod stock may be a nominal 25mm, for instance, but a 1" collet may not be a great fit. I think you can still get Royal, that's a pretty good brand. Or keep your eyes open, sometimes used ones go for cheap on ebay. I've got a plastic tub of old collets that came with a lathe -- they're mostly worn larger than nominal and sometimes I find one that fits but I wouldn't mind getting rid of them.

Jack

[JHowell]

Tyler, I took a closer look at the Grizzly website -- the collet closer attachment that I thought was generic to several lathes apparently only fits their 14X40. Which is a nice machine, but a bit much for me. There must be new 12s out there somewhere that come with collet closers or drawbars, I'll have to keep looking.

Jack

Birmingham YCL1236 lists lever collet closer as an option. Looks the same as the Grizzly 12X36, I reckon a $2500 Chinese lathe is a $2500 Chinese lathe is a $2500 . . . aw, hell. There's a guy here in Pittsburgh, Matt at Quality Machine Tools, who deals in imports, seems to have visited various factories and to be pretty well respected. Might be worth looking at his site. http://www.machinetoolonline.com/

[Tyler]

Jack,

I'm reviving this old thread, because my interest in a new lathe is now matched by the financial means to get one.

I was looking at the 4003 or 4003G again, as per your first recommendation, and I think that there IS a collet closer for that lathe.

This is what you meant, right?:

http://grizzly.com/products/Collet-Atta ... 2-03/G4026

Tyler

[smokindawg]

Tyler, great to hear that you are going to be able to get a larger metal lathe. A large percentage of the others here on this forum can understand your excitement. But even that being said most people don't understand it's just the beginning investment when you purchase the lathe, then the real buying beggins. Much like when a person first begins thinking about making pipes, then starts asking which tools are really needed, then which tools would make this job, or that job easier............. It goes the same way with a lathe. You decide which lathe you want, or can afford, then you begin to try and figure out which tooling you can use to make which job easier, which tools are worth the investment, and which you can really do without, so that you can purchase something else........... It's as described here several times...... Never ending. LOL.

And when you don't think it out and plan in advance, you end up like I have............ With three lathes now and lots of tooling that I could have done with out. And money spent on things I didn't need that could have.......... Blah, Blah, Blah... you know what I mean.

Congrats Tyler........... I look forward to the set up that you pick and hope to see the tooling you decide on as you figure it out.

[Tyler]

Smokindawg,

I am well aware of the "trap" of tooling with a new lathe. Don't throw me into that briar patch!

I bought a wood lathe as my first tool to make pipes. I had it for a month before I even owned a chisel or a jacob's chuck. Being anxious to try it out but being without tools, the first thing I ever did on that lathe was put a piece of broomstick between centers and "turn" it smaller with a flat head screwdriver. The first tools I bought were a $8 set of Harbor Freight chisels, and a really crappy 4-jaw independent chuck from Grizzly. The tooling was terrible BUT it got me started! And starting is a big deal. I made several decent pipes with those really bad tools. Fun times really.

Thanks for the warning though. If I knew how bad this briar patch of a new lathe might be, I'd probably be scared. I think charging in might be the only way.



Tyler

[smokindawg]

Yep Tyler, I knew you were already aware of the pit (Briar Patch). I started out with exactly the same wood lathe as you got. I also bought the crappy independant chuck and quickly found a oneway and then someone graciously made me a set of jaws for that chuck. I also purchased other items such as the drill chuck and other hand tools.

Then I decided I just had to have a metal lathe. I purchased my 6x18 craftsman/atlas. I proceeded to tool it pretty well, still not knowing what I really wanted or needed. But as most that have been making pipes, a 6" swing isn't quite enough. So I've used it to make a bit of tooling and a few tampers, but that's about it.

Now I have the Jet. Paid $600 for it, but it came with a pretty good 3 jaw self-centering chuck and a good independant 4 jaw. I paid $600 for it and then bought a self centering chuck from Grizzley much like the oneway and luckily the jaws from the oneway fit it. Only thing, the mounting holes on the new chuck were smaller, so I then drilled and tapped them to the same size as the oneway. So I quickly had a good chuck for the new Jet metal lathe to hold my blocks. I also purchased a self centering 4 jaw.......... Haven't had the lathe long and already have almost as much in tooling as the lathe cost me..... and I'm not done. LOL............. How many pipes have I made since the first purchase you may ask........ Maybe 15..... Number sold? 3 Buy hey. I have the stuff to make them. Least till the next tool purchase.

Wanted to say also, your videos are great and very helpful to newbies like me. I do all the research that I can so when I do have time, I'll have all the background I can get. (Travel for work and time in the shop is limited)