Black vs Dark Brown stain

[TRS]

I've seen a few recommendations for Dark Brown dye as the undercoat in a contrast stain (which is what I've been doing); is there any reason not to use Fiebing's USMC black? I'm about to apply the first coat on a pipe I'm working on and I'd like some advice before I proceed. I dug around and found some posts from 2006 or so where people seemed to like using black, but there were also some claims about the usmc black being too 'bluish' and appearing green when a yellowish topcoat was used.....please advise.

Thanks folks!

[KurtHuhn]

The USMC black from Feibings is a blue-black. Basically an extremely dark blue. If you plan to use a yellowish topstain, you're probably going to find that the pipe has a green cast. You can combat this slightly by adding some Feibings mahogany to the black.

[TRS]

Okay, thanks Kurt. I had been considering just mixing a small amount of the black into some dark brown....

[Sasquatch]

The other issue with black, even if it's black black, is that when you polish any part of the pipe, you get the wood contrast showing back through, and the black comes across as sort of smoky. This in itself can be really cool, but it tends to look a lot more artificial than a real dark brown. It looks applied, whereas the dark brown is more natural.

[TRS]

I think I get what you're saying. I'm gonna stick with dark brown for now. I'm more concerned with shaping and engineering right now anyhow; I'm just finishing everything smooth and contrast staining them for practice....

[Sasquatch]

My experiences with black, and the inability to get rid of the tan background if I polished, led me to thinking that the pipes looked like they'd been stained deeply with peanut butter.

[kbadkar]

The other issue with black, even if it's black black, is that when you polish any part of the pipe, you get the wood contrast showing back through, and the black comes across as sort of smoky. This in itself can be really cool, but it tends to look a lot more artificial than a real dark brown. It looks applied, whereas the dark brown is more natural.

My experiences with black, and the inability to get rid of the tan background if I polished, led me to thinking that the pipes looked like they'd been stained deeply with peanut butter.

I'm not sure I understand, Squatch. Define: polish, wood contrast, artificial, tan background (from black?).

[Sasquatch]

Let's see. By "artificial" I guess I mean that when you stain a piece of wood with a brown, or even an orangey sort of color, it usually looks fairly natural. It could be that the wood is just that color, you know? But if you stain a piece of wood bright blue, it looks like someone stained a piece of wood bright blue - it is no longer a highlight, or subtle, it is the focus.

So when you take a brownish piece of briar, and slap USMC black on it, and finish it the way you ordinarily finish a pipe, what you wind up with is the tan/brown of the wood peeking out from a grey/black stained background. It doesn't look good, it doesn't look natural. It doesn't look weathered, or petrified... it looks like someone tried to stain some wood black!

By "polish" I mean taking the thing to a tripoli wheel, for example. This is how grain contrast is usually brought about (I know you know this, I'm just sayin). You polish off the excess stain, and what you are left with is the differential between the absorbant parts of the wood (which will stay black (or green etc) and the non absorbant parts, which will polish up to a wood color again because they didn't soak in any color). With any kind of brown, the results look nice. But if you do it with black, it's ugly, as far as all my experiments have gone.

I realize that the method I'm talking about is not the way to do a dress black pipe. I'm merely saying that using black as a base in staining processes, hoping to emulate a golden contrast type finish, is probably wrong-headed, and that a dark brown is much easier to get decent results with. As always, YMMV.

[KurtHuhn]

As you said - YMMV.

I routinely use black as part of a contrast stain, and the effect can be rather stunning. Of course, this all depends on what kind of black you're using.

[kbadkar]

I don't have a problem with black as the base. I use Angelus Shoe Dye - Jet Black. I doesn't appear to have any green issues. Here's a close up of a recently finished "contrasty" stain - first black, then light brown.



Not that this is any great dye or finish job (tiny scratches missed), but I don't blame the black.

I dunno. Maybe it does look artificial, but I like the way black can bring out all the little natural details of the wood that would otherwise just be monotone.

[SimeonTurner]

I've fallen in love with black understain, but I agree with you, Sasquatch, if you aren't careful you can get muddly colors.

That said, you can also get stuff that's not so muddly...

[RadDavis]

Dude! Ensmall your pictures!

Rad

[SimeonTurner]

Holy crap! I posted those from my iPhone and didn't realize I posted the full size ones! Sorry all! I'll have to fix it from my computer tomorrow morning!


*EDIT: There....much better. *blush*

[Sasquatch]

Simeon, your skin tone is... awful. Like, you should probably see a doctor.


Great looking finish. I was fooling around with yellow over black and perhaps using too much black or the wrong black, but the results were not good. But red.... well, maybe I'll have to go back and play some more.

Kris that's better than I managed, but I'm still not fond of the greyish parts... the black vs orange looks great but the washy bits piss me off. Maybe I'm just silly that way.

[SimeonTurner]

Simeon, your skin tone is... awful. Like, you should probably see a doctor.

Yeah, I've been trying to stabilize my skin in an acetone bath so that I can smoke underwater with less chance of destabilization, but I think that something may have gone wrong. I may have to go back and do more tests in my super secret lab. :p

[kbadkar]

Kris that's better than I managed, but I'm still not fond of the greyish parts... the black vs orange looks great but the washy bits piss me off. Maybe I'm just silly that way.

Just sand less after the black stains between grits. Polishing shouldn't gray the transitions between grain patterns if you stained black at low enough grits.

I removed more black to "see" more grain detail, lighten the color of the pipe, and give room for the brown to orange to yellow spectrum to spread out. In normal light (not strong sun), the grayish wisps appear black and the finish is quite dark overall.