Contrast Stain

[RocheleauPipes]

Sand very carefully; stain with black or very dark stain; sand back extremely carefully to expose the hard grain patterns and leave the dark stain in the soft grain; stain with highlight stain in a light color, and hope that you have not created confusing patterns. There is no cut and dried way of doing this. Contrast staining can ruin the beautiful grain on certain blocks, and emphasize that on others. Experiment with alcohol washes to take the place of sanding back. It isn't quite as dramatic, but is safer for blocks that are dubious cadidates for sanding back. There is no substitute for practice. Just do it, as the saying goes

Cheers,
John

[bscofield]

drat!

I have sanded it down with 1500 grit (after sanding with 1000 or 1500 before staining) and I have trouble with getting the stain off of the hard grain and not the soft. I don't know how much more gentle I could be. I suppose I could be ULTRA patient while doing it and go VERY slowly. I don't really know what else to try...

[AAdomeit]

I think going ultra slowly is by far your best bet, Ben. Are you using a Dremmel tool, or are you sanding it by hand? You may want to try inserting a narrow Dremmel tool sanding bit into a hollow metal pipe (using epoxy glue) and sanding out each individual strand of "hard grain" by hand, not touching the soft stuff at all.

You could also - somehow - raise the hard grain. With steel (I know, I know), you'd use an acid bath. Batik uses wax in a similar manner. I know of a substance used to polish wood that hardens wood fibers to make it easier to sand off, and that might work.

Hmmm. I'll have to think on it some more.

[KurtHuhn]

I recently got some help in this regard.

Don't sand to 1000 or 1500 grit before staining. Only sand to 400, lay down the dark stain, use *the same piece* of 400 and carefully sand back the stain. Then sand up to whatever you want to go to and apply your lighter stain.

You may need to switch up the grits, depending on blocks. I find that 320 sometimes gives better contrast on certain pieces.

[bscofield]

hey kurt, will the stain really just sit there and hold for a few 3-4 more sandings? I guess they are pretty high grit... I'll have to give that a try on the one I'm working on now.

[ToddJohnson]

I, for one, am not done with this topic . John, any info you can post about the methods you had not tested? I just drool whenever I wander over to dansihpipemakers.com and look at eltang's pipes... they are absolutely amazing! I might just have to save up $10k and have him sell me the secret

No secret involved. This is "laboratory stain," used in impregnating slate table tops with black stain for science labs. It's a 2 part process consisting of 2 clear (actually translucent blueish) chemicals that give a deep opaque black. It's then sanded off (which is the real skill) and then stained over with virgin French stain. These are no longer produced and you have to have a special chemical license even to purchase them in Denmark. There are a few bottles of French stain floating around out there, and you can get ahold of the laboratory stain if you know the right people. My advice would be to try the Feibings leather dies.

Todd

[KurtHuhn]

hey kurt, will the stain really just sit there and hold for a few 3-4 more sandings? I guess they are pretty high grit... I'll have to give that a try on the one I'm working on now.

Well, that's the thing, it's not going to sit there. It will get soaked into the wood where it will color the more porous spots. When you sand back, you're only taking the surface color off, and the stuff that has soaked in will remain.

Sanding can be a delicate process once you get past 220 or 320. Don't use a lot of pressure, and don't try to take off too much wood. That stain that has soaked in will remain - as long as you don't sand too deep.

Also, there's no need to sand to ultra-high grits to finish a pipe. The higher you sand before applying stain, the less stain will adhere, and the more will come off later. Trust me - I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.

[bscofield]

Also, there's no need to sand to ultra-high grits to finish a pipe. The higher you sand before applying stain, the less stain will adhere, and the more will come off later. Trust me - I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.

I've sanded to these ultra high grits because I *think* I've noticed a considerable difference in the shine when I'm done buffing. I hear from friends that it's as tho it has a layer of glass on top of it. That combined with the old saying that "people like shiny things."

What i have yet to experiment with (and apparently I need to) is to apply the stain earlier in the process. What is different in the process of staining when the wood is smoother.

[Brendhain]

I have begun experimenting with black ink. I hve had reasonable success with the ink that is used to for rubber stamp.

I just got some ink that is for "padless" rubber stamps. It goes on the blocks as dark as pitch in one application. I haven't up it to the tripoli yet but the ink really sicks well in the grain.

In a couple of weeks I should have more work done on it and I will let you know how it went.

[jeff]

I've used many colors for understains including red, cordovan, various browns, etc. In my experience the understain does not need to be black but just needs to be darker than the topcoat.

Jeff

[bscofield]

I know what your talking about jeff. I feel that I have a relative measure of success in the way of making grain stand out. But that's not the same as the dramatic contrast like Eltang gets tho. Has anyone ever just asked him how he does it? I think I might write him and just see if he will tell a stranger... can't hurt. Of course he could find me at the next pipe show and punch me or something... 8O

[RocheleauPipes]

Hi Random,

I have used an almost black. I might mix up some extremely dark reddish/brown. It looks almost black, but interacts with the over-stain better in my opinion. Some color theory goes a long way to working with color over color. When you put the highloght stain over the black, you'll get a third color. Remember that yellow over black makes green; red over black makes brown. These affects are slight due to the highlight color being light, but they happen, and you can use that to create the final effect you want. I've also used several other colors as understain, from deep red, to violet black, to medium red/brown.

I mix all colors from the three primaries, so the only aniline dyes I need to buy (only once in a lifetime--they last so long) is red, yellow, and blue. Infinite colors can then be had, and it's very econonmical.

So much fun
John

[Nick]

Neat comments about color theory John! Definately some food for thought.

[RocheleauPipes]

Like anything, when you understand the mechanics or chemistry of it, you can play with it more and have fun with it. Color theory is based primarily on the interactions of color, when mixed together, and when viewed beside one another. If you get a "color wheel" from an art store, it will be a good guide to learning. The first thing to learn is that all colors can be made from the three primaries, Red, Yellow, and blue. The other important aspect of color is that when opposites are mixed together, they mute each other in various ways. These are called "compliment colors." The basic compliment colors are: red vs green, yellow vs violet, and blue vs orange. Intermixes of color have their own compliments that you can figure out. When you mix two compliments together, they mute one another, but when you view them side by side, they accent one another. This bit of knowledge is the key to using color.

Say you have the three primaries of dyes. If you want brown, you might mix some yellow and blue to make green, then add it's compliment--red--to make brown. Or you can mix some red and yellow to make orange, and add it's compliment--blue--to make brown. The final result depends on the quantities of each. Mix the three together in a certain way, and you'll get a black substitue, leaning either toward brown, or green, or violet. For unstaining and highlighting, you then take into account the effect of the highlight stain on the understain, again according to color theory.

This method of knowing and working with color gives you much more control and possible effects. The other advantage, as I mentioned in the above post, is that you only need to buy the three colors. I paid $100. for 8 ounces each of the three dye powders from Mohawk Industries . That's enough to last a lifetime, and I can then make any color under the sun with them.

Cheers,
John

[RocheleauPipes]

The purpleish color of the understain you describe goes away because of the yellow content of your highlight stain. Remember yellow and violet mute each other; that's why the purple disapears with the overstain. You know, in painting, very few artists use black paint in their mixes. I don't own any black paint. The black you can produce with the primaries is usually better than pure black. You can mix it to have more richness than black, perhaps toward the red hue. Then with overstains you have no surprises of the nasty sort, It doesn't look artificial, and when buffed, the yellow brown of the briar comes through and enhances the blackish tone.

Well, that's the theory anyway. I know color, but I am still experimenting and learning how to use that knowlege in my pipe making. I love color and want to use it more fully in my pipe making.

I have spent my day working on three pipes; sanding out pits and deciding if I still have a shape I like from the result, and inserting the logos in the stems. Tomorrow will be a more fun day I think, as the play with the final shapes, final sanding etc begins. My wrist hurts though. I have developed a problem there; as if the inner ear thing and all the rest of it isn't enough. Oh well, I'll work through it. It must be telling me something though. Perhaps I should listen for a change It may be telling me something impotant and useful, like use your head more and your hands less.

Cheers,
John

[JHowell]

I asked Tom Eltang about his golden contrast stain. He said he uses leather dye for the understain. I had heard about the two-part lab bench stain Todd described in association with Tom, but he (Eltang) didn't mention it. I wonder if it's a silver nitrate preparation.

[ToddJohnson]

I asked Tom Eltang about his golden contrast stain. He said he uses leather dye for the understain. I had heard about the two-part lab bench stain Todd described in association with Tom, but he (Eltang) didn't mention it.

Somebody was--how shall we say--telling you a story Jack. I don't know why. I've always known Tom to be forthright and up front about everything, but I assure you, his golden contrast finish is not achieved with leather dye. I would imagine, after all these years, that the annoyance which comes from being asked where to get lab stain might lead one to infer they wouldn't know. That is very curious indeed.

Todd

[JHowell]

Somebody was--how shall we say--telling you a story Jack. I don't know why. I've always known Tom to be forthright and up front about everything, but I assure you, his golden contrast finish is not achieved with leather dye. I would imagine, after all these years, that the annoyance which comes from being asked where to get lab stain might lead one to infer they wouldn't know. That is very curious indeed.

Todd

Hmm, well, my communication was directly with Tom, and the only reason I asked him was because of his reputation for forthrightness. I'm sure what he told me was, as Obi-Wan said, true from certain point of view. So, I return to my original musing: I wonder if it's a weak silver nitrate preparation? Nothing blacker than oxidized silver nitrate. It's very corrosive in any concentration, but profoundly durable. Don't suppose you'd have access to labels to read, Todd?