pipemakersforum.com

Mike Messer wrote:This is gonna blow some minds... I keep detailed notes with time spent on each detail of each pipe I make, still it's a little difficult to extract the time spent on a particular component, but as best I can tell, I spent about 18 hours making the stem on my "Tilted Pot" pipe, and the overall hands-on time was 89 hours, so that would be about 20/80, or 20% on the stem, and 80% on everything else.
The amout of time spent is also why my prices are so high. $1500 retail / 2 = $750 wholsale, minus about $60 materials = $690 / 89 hours = $7.75 per hour for labor and overhead.

People have made this mistake before, Mike. You can't price beginning pipes based on the number of hours you took to make them. You come out with an ok looking pipe and try to sell it for $1500-6500? It just won't work.

Customers do not care how long it takes you to make a pipe. They care about how it looks and the price.

Efficiency is key.

Rad "Thought I'd give it one more try" Davis

20mins seems very quick, did Rainer use pre-forms by any chance?
89 hours on the other hand is a bloody long time to spend making essentially a small billiard. From what I have heard someone like Tinsky could make 30 pipes in that time and make a heck of a lot more than $1500 selling them!

RadDavis wrote:

Mike Messer wrote:This is gonna blow some minds... I keep detailed notes with time spent on each detail of each pipe I make, still it's a little difficult to extract the time spent on a particular component, but as best I can tell, I spent about 18 hours making the stem on my "Tilted Pot" pipe, and the overall hands-on time was 89 hours, so that would be about 20/80, or 20% on the stem, and 80% on everything else.
The amout of time spent is also why my prices are so high. $1500 retail / 2 = $750 wholsale, minus about $60 materials = $690 / 89 hours = $7.75 per hour for labor and overhead.

Customers do not care how long it takes you to make a pipe. They care about how it looks and the price.

+1

You can price your pipes based on how many hours you put into it but it won't sell unless that price is proportionate to the quality of the pipe. Try pricing your pipes in a range that someone will pay for them.

.

RadDavis wrote:

Mike Messer wrote:This is gonna blow some minds... I keep detailed notes with time spent on each detail of each pipe I make, still it's a little difficult to extract the time spent on a particular component, but as best I can tell, I spent about 18 hours making the stem on my "Tilted Pot" pipe, and the overall hands-on time was 89 hours, so that would be about 20/80, or 20% on the stem, and 80% on everything else.
The amout of time spent is also why my prices are so high. $1500 retail / 2 = $750 wholsale, minus about $60 materials = $690 / 89 hours = $7.75 per hour for labor and overhead.

People have made this mistake before, Mike. You can't price beginning pipes based on the number of hours you took to make them. You come out with an ok looking pipe and try to sell it for $1500-6500? It just won't work.

Customers do not care how long it takes you to make a pipe. They care about how it looks and the price.

Efficiency is key.

Rad "Thought I'd give it one more try" Davis

Poppycock.

I have adopted a new strategm for sanding in which I sand at each grit, starting at 18 grit and working my way up to 300,000 grit, for approximately 2 hours per grit. By the time I am done, my pipes have had ~850 hours put in to their development. I am a generous man, so I only charge the pipe smokers of the world a modest $6 per hour for my time, and all of my materials are complimentary. Hence, most of my pipes run in the $5000 range.

I'm not trying to get rich, just serve the pipe smoking public. All I have to do is sell 10 pipes a year (which is about all I can crank out anyway, with this new technique), and I will be able to continue to live modestly and offer my services to all who want a well made pipe at a rock bottom hourly rate.

I took out an ad in the yellow pages to advertise my charitable new business. Now it's just a matter of waiting here by the phone to take the orders.

Pshhhhh....Rad...thinking you know what the hell you are talking about. Poppycock.

RadDavis wrote:

Mike Messer wrote:This is gonna blow some minds... I keep detailed notes with time spent on each detail of each pipe I make, still it's a little difficult to extract the time spent on a particular component, but as best I can tell, I spent about 18 hours making the stem on my "Tilted Pot" pipe, and the overall hands-on time was 89 hours, so that would be about 20/80, or 20% on the stem, and 80% on everything else.
The amout of time spent is also why my prices are so high. $1500 retail / 2 = $750 wholsale, minus about $60 materials = $690 / 89 hours = $7.75 per hour for labor and overhead.

People have made this mistake before, Mike. You can't price beginning pipes based on the number of hours you took to make them. You come out with an ok looking pipe and try to sell it for $1500-6500? It just won't work.

Customers do not care how long it takes you to make a pipe. They care about how it looks and the price.

Efficiency is key.

Rad "Thought I'd give it one more try" Davis

Thanks Rad. You truly are a gentleman.
I understand where you (and others) are coming from, and in many ways, I'm sure you are right about this in most all probable situations, but not absolutely right in all situations. My approach to pipemaking is different. I may not get anywhere, because of the reasons you stated, or because I just don't have the magic talent ingredient to make it happen. I can't say, now, because it ain't over, but I think it is posible for someone to operate with a different philosophy, and in a way where normal market values don't apply.
I've seen architects and artists who don't give a damn how long it takes, or what anyone else in the world thinks about the end product, as long as they are okay with it. It might sound a bit arrogant, but it is not. It is just a different method and objective. The idea is to find the Holy Grail, treking through swamps and over mountains, into deep caverns and flying out through space. Time, money, business, none of that matters. It's irrelevant.
And just for the record, I'm no beginner.
Mike "hard headed as usual" Messer

P.S. In other news, Simeon Turner is an idiot.

Edit: Typo, etc.

SimeonTurner wrote: Pshhhhh....Rad...thinking you know what the hell you are talking about. Poppycock.

+1

a well made pipe at a rock bottom hourly rate.

What a great way to spin it!

Rad

caskwith wrote:20mins seems very quick, did Rainer use pre-forms by any chance?
89 hours on the other hand is a bloody long time to spend making essentially a small billiard. From what I have heard someone like Tinsky could make 30 pipes in that time and make a heck of a lot more than $1500 selling them!

Chris

Not that i'm aware of... unless he made his own preforms... I make (when I have good briar) two to three pipes at a time.. normally just two though... takes a few weeks.. as I kind of have a day job that requires quite a bit of travel... and a wonderful wife that lets me unwind in my workshop.. but if your working on several a day I assume you simplify the design so you can sell them and pay the rent.. look at many of the big sellers here in Europe.. how many produce 20-30 pipes with a military mount.. why? if you fitting mouthpieces for a load of pipes at once the military mount is the way to go.. (a feat I have yet to successfully accomplish.. it baffels me)

tenon.. flare up.. flare down.. flatten out.. sand sand sand.. buff .. polish .. done

I'm not poking at them, as their mouthipeces are exquisite.. but I work on a stummel for a week or so.. decide on which swirl makes bruce the dizziest.. and then work on that mouthpiece for 3 or 4 days.. an hour day one one.five day two.. piddle days 3 and 4 refining the process.... drill .. shape.. belt sander.. files.. sand.. sand.. sand.. sand.. buff.. resand as I mised a scratch.. buff.. polish..

I think I'm rambling...

Answer to the question .. I don't think so... his mouthpieces (I've seen) were really really nice..

James

Massis wrote:I'm far from an expert, but something tells me you should consider buying tools instead of gnawing away at the briar with your teeth... That might be faster.

Actually, I use my fingernails. Well, the term is "Handmade Pipes," right?

Mike Messer wrote: And just for the record, I no beginner.

Mike, did you mean to type "I know beginner" ??

Edward wrote:

Mike Messer wrote: And just for the record, I no beginner.

Mike, did you mean to type "I know beginner" ??

Actually, I meant to type, "I no ho, big winner."

I've seen architects and artists who don't give a damn how long it takes, or what anyone else in the world thinks about the end product, as long as they are okay with it.

I'm sure this is true, but I doubt that some guy just out of architect or art school hangs out his shingle and gets exorbitant prices for his beginning work. He has to build a reputation first. You ain't got one, and unless you sell some pipes, you won't get one, and you won't sell any pipes at the prices you're asking.

And you are a beginning pipe maker, unless you've been hiding your work from the world, in which case it doesn't matter anyway, since you'll still be perceived as a beginner given the pipes you're offering now.

Your work is very nice considering the amount of time you've been making pipes, but it still looks like a beginner's work. We've all been there, it's just the way it is.

The way your pipes are priced now, it does appear that you're just a little bit arrogant. Arrogance is not a bad thing necessarily. Lord knows, Todd Johnson is arrogant. But he actually sells his pipes and gets exorbitant prices for them. Because he's been at it for quite a while, and he has a reputation!

You're going about this thing all backwards and shit.

Hope this helps.

Rad

RadDavis wrote:

I've seen architects and artists who don't give a damn how long it takes, or what anyone else in the world thinks about the end product, as long as they are okay with it.

I'm sure this is true, but I doubt that some guy just out of architect or art school hangs out his shingle and gets exorbitant prices for his beginning work. He has to build a reputation first. You ain't got one, and unless you sell some pipes, you won't get one, and you won't sell any pipes at the prices you're asking.

(Snip, regretfully)

Casino folks make their living on the human tendency to expect atypical results. It is true that there have been artists who have been successful, or at least notorious, producing stuff that most people do not care for. For some of them, the acclaim comes after they are dead, and care even less about their hourly rate than they used to. But for the most part it's a myth. Every successful (read, not starving) artist has a buyer for his work. Sometimes it's just one buyer, but the work has to be sold. The idea that the product is ART, that the artist has to be given freedom to follow his muse and that the patron's duty is to enable this behavior, is often at least implied in the sales pitch, but it's a sale nonetheless and the piece is usually commissioned. Artists who pour their lives into work that is both unpalatable and speculative are either starving or dependents.

Leave Mike alone! You're lucky he even performs for you bastards.

Sasquatch wrote:Leave Mike alone! You're lucky he even performs for you bastards.

Thanks, Sasquatch. It seems like your hostility for me and sarcasm have now taken you 180 degrees and, I'm sure, unintentionally, you're on my side. Thanks again.
But seriously, Rad and JHowell, both, make arguments which make perfect sense to me. I can't contest any point they have made, but I don't consider this to be a problem, and some would say, "that's my problem."

Sasquatch wrote:Leave Mike alone! You're lucky he even performs for you bastards.

OK. Sorry.

I don't want to be a jerk, but 18 hours on a saddle stem is stupid. Most high grade pipe makers can make two + pipes in 18 hours.
If it took me 18 hours to make a stem, I would be as looney as Rod, Simon, Pohldancer or tomatohead sasquashed.
Betcha Rod could do that stem in 1 hr. and it would be spot on. Hell, I use a hatchet and sharpened toenails and can do a better job in 1.1287436 hours. Could do it faster, but that dammed ebonite stinks causing me to take numerous breaks.
Dang, my last pipe was broken down like this:
2 seconds to get down the axe.
25 seconds to find the misplaced rasp.
2 minutes to sharpen my toenails.
2 minutes 26 seconds to take a pee break.
3 minutes to shape with a 24 grit wheel @ 3600 rpm.
5 minutes 108 seconds to drill
43 minutes to make the stem
12 seconds to blast @ 376 psi
3 minutes to spit shine
16 seconds to blow the briar out of my nose.
48 seconds to piss in the bowl and add some Kingsford charcoal as a bowl coating.
14 minutes 13 seconds to stamp nomenclature
18 hours to photograph, write a description, load onto my web site.
Put the pipe up for $3,600 and it's been sitting there for 12 years, 3 months, 13 hours and 12 seconds.

Why should I be tarred with the epithet "Looney" merely because I have a pet halibut?

there's nothing wrong with having a pet halibut... as long as it earns its keep by making stems.