On Being New and Selling Pipes

[Tyler]

I have had the good pleasure of having interaction with a few new pipe makers in the last several months, and additionally reading comments by new folks here. In that interaction there has been a common thread: a big worry about selling pipes.

I fear this is the curse that comes with the blessing of information.

Because there are so many resources for learning how to make pipes on the Internet, it is very easy to gather the necessary information these days. That's good. Unfortunately, with that information is an awareness of what is wrong with the pipes you create. Critiques are readily available and while helpful (even critical) for improvement it can also paralyze one from being willing to sell. The maker is too aware of flaws.

So I arrive at my point:

It's OK to sell flawed pipes.

You have to. We all have to. The key is simply to sell at a fair price. Granted, that raises a whole new set of concerns, but those have been at least addressed over the years on this forum. (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=93&hilit=prices , viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32&hilit=prices , viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2105&hilit=prices )

So my encouragement to new makers is this, don't sacrifice workable on the altar of perfection. Get help determining a fair price for your pipes and sell them. You cannot and will not prevent the sale of pipes that make you cringe at some point down the road. It's going to happen. That's OK. Heck, it can even be funny. Name this pipe maker:






I think the above maker would agree with me when I say that I'm glad I didn't know how bad I was when I first started. (For me, its important that I maintain my delusion, for the above carver not so much.) I address this "ignorance" from the negative end in my open letter to new pipe makers -- explaining that as a new pipe maker, you are not "all that" even though your local buddies say you are -- but I want to cushion that with this post.

Sell pipes. That's a good thing. It's scary, but you've got to give it a go with imperfect pipes or you'll never sell one.

Most of all though, have fun.

Tyler

[Sasquatch]

That's a good post Tyler. It's nice to make a perfect pipe, or as perfect as we can, but the fact is, you can't just start out making pipes that are likely to sell for 600 bucks. Not me, anyway. Maybe eGarble could.

I think the only thing one might add to it is that established pipe makers really, really super don't care how new guys price their pipes, or if new guys sell their pipes. Quite the opposite actually - I've had nothing but help and direct encouragement from the "real" pipemakers.

There's a host of folk out there who will buy a pipe to "try out" a new maker, or who would rather buy 3 pipes for 80 or 100 dollars than one pipe for 300. And their feedback is valuable too - pipe smokers are the client, so what they want and what they like is a big part of this game. The feedback you get at this forum or through direct contact with pipemakers is more technical, more detailed, and often about the design side of pipes, which I have found many pipe smokers to be.... more or less unaware of. I recently posted in a thread about Castello pipes on smokersforum, and detailed some eccentricities in their carving (in response to a question about it) and got a LOT of messages saying "Wow, I've never looked at pipes like that before." So the game being played here is not the game being played by... many pipe smokers.

Lastly, I think one critical thing to keep in mind as an aspiring carver, is the "actual value" of any given pipe. If you look at what comes out of Italy or England for let's say $200.00 dollars, .... well, there are some very nice pipes. Ferndown, Mastro de Paja, Il Ceppo.... So the reality is, unless you make a pipe that someone really loves and "has to have" (and this happens all the time), it's very very difficult to walk into pipe making and just start selling pipes at a "making money" sort of price, because the fact is, competition is pretty stiff (it's not fierce though - like I said above, I've never felt even a hint of antipathy from any other pipe maker). It's kind of crushing to work on a pipe for 15 hours and then wind up selling it for 70 bucks, but I don't think there's any other way to get through. Next time, it takes 14.5 hours and you sell it for 75. That's progress!

[Massis]

Thanks guys, both Tyler and Sasquatch, for these posts.

It's nice to know that actual pipemakers (which I don't consider myself to be obviously) don't mind us hobbyists trying to earn some on the side.
Over the last year orso all your info has been very helpfull in getting me started.

Now is the time for me to realise the truth in a saying that keeps popping up on this forum: "The difference between theory and practice, is that in theory they are the same, but in practice they are not."

My goal for now is to earn back my investment in materials from the 25 blocks I just bought. That would mean selling 4 pipes for around €50 (70$) out of 25 blocks of briar. (of which i've already ruined 2 by sanding into the bowl , but hey, you learn some you lose some I guess )

I'm young (nearly 24) so I've got plenty of years left to become good at this. If in some years time it earns me a little something extra on the side, I'll have accomplished my goal. (while not a goal, the dream is offcourse to actually make a living doing this)


Oh and Sas: my first one took 20+ hours just carving it from a predrilled block and it didn't sell (not that I tried selling it). Rough shaping took 5 hours orso... (now that I have French wheel from Tim West and a bandsaw it takes more like 20 minues...)

[taharris]

I want to express my whole hearted agreement with Sas.

I've never make a secret of the fact that I don't intend to make a career out of pipe making.
I just want to continue to improve and sell enough pipes to be able to support my hobby (read addiction).

Sas and the other pipe makers on this forum (although a bit quirky at times ) have been nothing but honest, encouraging and helpful to me.

Thanks guys.

Todd

[Tyler]

I want to express my half-hearted disagreement with Sas.

True, there are a lot of decent $200 pipes out there, but most aren't too much competition. For $200 you are likely looking at a factory pipe that probably has a lot of hand work, but isn't an Artisan pipe in the truest sense. There are a lot of folks out there looking for one-man-shop pipes, and they aren't looking for brand name from Italy. So it's not a direct what-will-$200-buy-me competition, but more of a who's-got-game-and-still-"cheap" competition. Game, in this sense isn't perfection, but someone who's learning and improving and demonstrating a little talent and attention to detail.

My disagreement is half-hearted though because it's true that if you make really crappy pipes, then you will have to worry about the Italians. That's not too much of a worry though.

By the way...no guesses on that pipe? C'Mon!

[wdteipen]

That's a tough one. It looks like any number of first pipes I've seen on PMF but still better than my first.

[geigerpipes]

Todd Johnsson?

[TRS]

Trever?

[caskwith]

I'm gonna say Todd J, Trevor would also have been a guess but I have seen pictures of his early work and it wasn't in this style.

[Nate]

Jeff Gracik.

[e Markle]

Toku - that's TOTALLY his style.

[Tyler]

Todd Johnsson?

That was quick.

[Sasquatch]

Not even 200 bucks.

http://www.pipes2smoke.com/Ferndown/LW_07.htm


Now, is that the greatest pipe ever built? No, and I would critique a few things about it. But .... it's out there.


I'm gonna raise my prices to outlandish Wayne Teipen type of rates, and see what happens.

[geigerpipes]

Todd Johnsson?

That was quick.

Horray ok what did I win??

[SimeonTurner]

Todd Johnsson?

That was quick.

Horray ok what did I win??

You win THAT VERY PIPE!

Congrats, Love. I'm sure you will be excited to own a piece of tobacciana history.

Ironically, I'd say that the pipe looks like an amateur's attempt at replicating Love's signature shape. In fact, I'm begining to wonder if Todd and Love are, in fact, the same person! Think about it, when's the last time you saw Love and Todd in the same room together?

Something fishy goin on here...

[Tyler]

Not even 200 bucks.

http://www.pipes2smoke.com/Ferndown/LW_07.htm


Now, is that the greatest pipe ever built? No, and I would critique a few things about it. But .... it's out there.


I'm gonna raise my prices to outlandish Wayne Teipen type of rates, and see what happens.

Fine. Keep thinking that you are in direct dollar-for-dollar competion with him.

If you want to be the Walmart of pipes that's fine. I'm just saying you don't have to be. Remember, Les can't make a Sas.

Case in point: the aforementioned newbie, Todd Johnson, just posted on twitter seven pipes made by three makers, himself one of them. He challenged people to correlate the pipes to the appropriate maker. The best anyone did was 3 out of the 7 correct. The prices for the respective pipes will be RADICALLY different. Todd's will be four figures, and Pete Prevost and Adam Remington's in the mid-hundreds. Why doesn't Todd take Pete and Adam's prices into account? Because his are stamped Todd Johnson. Why doesn't he factor in that my car cost less than his average pipe? Because it doesn't matter. He can sell them for four figures so he does, and that Ferndown is still $195.

Tyler

[Sasquatch]

We're talking at cross-purposes here Tyler. Perhaps the air up in that ivory tower is a little thin? We're talking about NEWBIE pipe makers - guys who simply cannot be expected to crank out a pipe that anyone is going to pay $500.00 for.

I offered up that Ferndown as an example of a decent looking pipe made from decent materials, by a pipe maker with a long track record and some brand recognition, and priced at a point that is very reasonable. The fact that I'm trying to convey is that there's a large crowd who will choose that over a Sasquatch pipe at $195 because they've heard of Les Wood and not of Todd Bannard.

I ... simply AM.. in direct competition with him. And Tinsky. And maybe Jimmy Craig. Lots of smokers would rather have an Ashton in their collection than a Sas. Who the hell has ever heard of me?? The advantage Tinsky and I have is that we are easily accessible for people who want custom pipes. Also I think Mark has been doing this a little longer than me.

Can I work hard, carve well, buy great briar, and make Todd Johnson sort of prices? Yeah eventually I maybe could, assuming I apply myself and that the talent is actually there. (All this for me is actually sort of denouement because I've made and sold more pipes than I ever could have imagined, and learned so much I just can't believe it.).

Todd Johnson is a brand. And because of how he's operated and what he's made, it's a brand with some panache. But are we talking about developing a brand or are we talking about developing pipes? Or maybe it's one and the same?

Is your suggestion, then, Tyler, that Adam and Pete should price like Todd? Shall I do as well? Certainly Todd does NOT take their pricing into account, but just as certainly, they must take his into accounting when pricing out their own work. Because he's the benchmark. If I built cars that were like Fords in performance and quality, I could not ask Ferrari prices. Likewise if I built cars that WERE of Ferrari performance and quality, I could ask Ferrari-ish prices perhaps, but probably not more, because, after all, I could get a Ferrari for that cash.

Surely your suggestion is not that a newbie pipe maker should produce a lump of ugly garbage and pronounce it "hand made and one of a kind" and try to get $500.00 for it? Are you suggesting that the market will decide what each pipe is worth?

The mere fact that my pipe is fondled, loved, and slaved over does not make it any better, nor worth any more than a good Savinelli, unless I am a highly skilled pipe maker and can cut a killer button, and buy excellent briar and get a good finish. Nor does a fifty dollar briar block guarantee a 500.00 pipe.

All of this you know, so in a sense, I'm confused about what you are telling me (or our newbies). Do I owe it to myself to make fancier/better pipes than Ferndown? Is there some moral imperative here?

Or am I a fool for stamping my pipes with a mere "BST" and no bullshit about dead roots, magic oil, or Corsican miracle briar?

So be it.

[wdteipen]

I'm gonna raise my prices to outlandish Wayne Teipen type of rates, and see what happens.

Since when was $200-$350 outlandish for a handmade pipe? I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be flattered or offended.

[Sasquatch]

Neither Wayne - I grabbed your name more or less at random. I don't find your prices outlandish - you make nice looking pipes with unique flare. And generally speaking, you ask more for them than I ask for mine, which are a completely different style in the first place.


The point I'm trying to make is that, $350 (to grab a number) is not too much for a nice pipe, but on the other side of the coin calling something "handmade and one of a kind" is utterly irrelevant if the thing is an ugly lump. I just don't think a new pipe maker can or should approach from that direction. The "Why won't anybody buy my pipes?" goes away if they are priced modestly.

Perhaps I am wrong-headed about all this stuff - I'm confused by Tyler's claim that I am not in competition with other pipe makers at any given price point. On one hand we are trying to say that any given pipe is worth a certain dollar figure if it's "good" enough, irrespective of the stamp it bears, and on the other hand, we are saying that brand recognition is more important than the product.

[wdteipen]

Neither Wayne - I grabbed your name more or less at random. I don't find your prices outlandish - you make nice looking pipes with unique flare. And generally speaking, you ask more for them than I ask for mine, which are a completely different style in the first place.


The point I'm trying to make is that, $350 (to grab a number) is not too much for a nice pipe, but on the other side of the coin calling something "handmade and one of a kind" is utterly irrelevant if the thing is an ugly lump. I just don't think a new pipe maker can or should approach from that direction. The "Why won't anybody buy my pipes?" goes away if they are priced modestly.

Perhaps I am wrong-headed about all this stuff - I'm confused by Tyler's claim that I am not in competition with other pipe makers at any given price point. On one hand we are trying to say that any given pipe is worth a certain dollar figure if it's "good" enough, irrespective of the stamp it bears, and on the other hand, we are saying that brand recognition is more important than the product.

Oh, okay. Can you edit it to say that eMarkable guy. He has thicker skin than I do.