Considering a Matthews Lathe

[Alden]

I've been reading up on PM lathes for a few days, seems like you guys that have them dont want anything else.
The 1127vf has really been keeping me up at night.
I have a few questions for you, would this lathe absolutely need to be on a concrete floor ?
I'll be working in a wooden shed with a plywood floor and 2x4 braces underneath. Is an 1127vf too much lathe ??
I have little lathe experience but when I mentioned midi lathes, more than one said to start with a metal lathe if I'm seriously wanting to pursue this. Thats really stayed on my mind.
My other questions are budget related. I can *barely* swing just the price of the lathe for now.
How much will I regret not getting a collet closer added up front?
How much will I wish I had the larger spindle bore ?
Also lots of extras come standard, but what other parts would I need at a bare minimum to start turning pipes ? Will the 4 jaw chuck that comes with it work for a time ? What about turning tools ? Anything else I need to account for ?
All the insight I can get will help.

[Tyler]

I've been reading up on PM lathes for a few days, seems like you guys that have them dont want anything else.
The 1127vf has really been keeping me up at night.
I have a few questions for you, would this lathe absolutely need to be on a concrete floor ?
I'll be working in a wooden shed with a plywood floor and 2x4 braces underneath. Is an 1127vf too much lathe ??
I have little lathe experience but when I mentioned midi lathes, more than one said to start with a metal lathe if I'm seriously wanting to pursue this. Thats really stayed on my mind.
My other questions are budget related. I can *barely* swing just the price of the lathe for now.
How much will I regret not getting a collet closer added up front?
How much will I wish I had the larger spindle bore ?
Also lots of extras come standard, but what other parts would I need at a bare minimum to start turning pipes ? Will the 4 jaw chuck that comes with it work for a time ? What about turning tools ? Anything else I need to account for ?
All the insight I can get will help.

I can't answer all your specific questions about the PM (though it's a big lathe to be sitting on a 2x4 floor!), but I do want to address the "if you are serious, get a metal lathe," comment. I would be the first to say that a metal lathe is a very necessary tool for making the highest quality pipes with the most ease. And if money is no problem, I'd recommend starting with a machine like you are researching.

HOWEVER, it is not at all necessary to start with a machine like this. In fact, I'd be willing to venture that very few of the best pipe makers in the world have a machine this big and nice. You can, for much less money, get a perfectly serviceable metal lathe. Is this PM lathe a good choice? Absolutely! I'd LOVE to have one, but it is way above the level of "necessary." (Let me know if your wife is reading this forum, and I'll change that last sentence.)

As for some of the feaures, don't sweat it. I use a lathe that is 3/8" through the headstock. The standard PM11 is what, 1 1/16"? Heck, that'll do. Collets? I'd love them. Don't have them though, and I can make a decent pipe.

As for other things you need to account for, if this is your first lathe, yes, there is probably more. Some more tool holders for the quick change would certainly be nice, and a Jacobs chuck, cutting tools, a way to sharpen cutting tools, and drill bits will all be needed items before you can even make a pipe. Additionally, you might need to modify the four jaw for it to hold briar securely. Better yet, you'll want a self-centering four jaw with modified jaws.

Bottom line, I sure can't blame you for wanting such a nice lathe, and if you buy it I'm sure you'll love it. But since it sounds like this taps your budget you need to decide if you want the machine bad enough to not make pipes while you save up to buy more stuff to be able to use the machine. You don't HAVE to have this nice a lathe, but it'll be sure great if you get it!

[SimeonTurner]

I've owned the PM 11x27 LB (with a DRO) for about 3 months now (I paid for mine in January, and it arrived in June). I know of 3 other makers who have it or are waiting for it to arrive. It's a great machine, and WAY more machine than you need for simple pipe making.

It weighs almost 800 lbs. This precipitated my workshop being completely relocated from my basement to my garage, as I couldn't figure a way to get it down the stairs (and who knows if the stairs would have even been able to take that much weight 9with 4 or 5 dudes lifting it). I wouldn't feel great about it resting on plywood....mostly because of the potential for wobble that would eliminate all of the joy of having a big heavy metal lathe.

There is no need for collets. I'm sure you could find a use for them, but it would be yet another luxury.

The 3 jaw chuck is pretty much all you will ever need for turning stems etc. You WILL need to have a chuck fabricated for briar. My Trent Rudat chuck that I had before I got the lathe works great, but I had to pay a machinist to retrofit it to fit the headstock of the new lathe. Lots of ways to do this, but prolly a couple of hundred bucks to do this, unless you don't have a chuck yet, which means getting one made could include having it made specifically for this machine. I cannot speak to the 4 jaw chuck, as mine is still not here (something wrong with the ones they got in the shipment last time, so it's supposedly coming at some point later).

The machine comes with a lot of accessories, but you will need more. It comes with a nice keyless jacobs chuck, live and dead centers, etc. It comes with 1 quick change too post for turning, and another QCTP for boring operations. You probably will want to buy 4 or 5 more. The cutting tools it comes with are crap, so you will need to buy cutting tool blanks and grind new ones. At the very least you will want a RH, LH, and Rounded cutter. I even have a QCTP dedicated to a blank that I use as a tool rest for when I want to make cuts with my turning gouges and chisels.

The DRO, while a total luxury, makes things really easy when it comes to quickly cutting to specific diameters and lengths. Again, it is WAY more functionality than we need as pipe makers, but it's nice to have.

I think I spent almost 100 bucks up front to stock up on the appropriate lubricants for the machine. It calls for 3 different types of oil for the ways, gearbox, and oil ports, along with grease for the gears etc.

The larger bore is not necessary at all...mine came that way as a free upgrade, but the smaller diameter would be fine....again, for nothing but pipe making it is WAY more machine than you need.

I'll echo Tyler's comments...this machine is a great deal for the price if you are a full time maker that needs to maximize efficiency because time=$ It is only worth investing in something like this if you are at that point (or striving to be there). If you plan to make 10 pipes per year, it's probably way too much machine (unless you plan to use it for other machining purposes).

[Alden]

it's a big lathe to be sitting on a 2x4 floor

Arggggg. I knew that was the answer, but I had to ask it anyway. I would find a way around all the other issues, but I dont see any options for that one, short of renting space and I'm not ready to do that.
My biggest issue is that by the time you tool up a lesser lathe, at the very least your halfway to a Matthews, and in most cases you're there already. That, and power cross feed makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.
Also the fact that they're shipping soon is driving the sleepless nights, I've heard all the stories of waiting forever.

(Let me know if your wife is reading this forum, and I'll change that last sentence.)

What a guy that Tyler

Simeon, thanks for firsthand info about the machine/accessories. I suppose I need another plan for now but I'll console myself with an 1127VF-LB w/DRO and a 5C collett chuck in the distant future

It is only worth investing in something like this if you are at that point (or striving to be there)

Well, I dont want to be the dumb new guy that thinks he's going to be a really good pipemaker someday but he's never actually made a pipe, but I sort of am the dumb new guy that thinks he's going to be a great pipemaker some day even though he's never made a pipe....... Hmmm sounds pretty ridiculous now that I put it in writing.
But really, that is the way I am approaching this, ridiculous or not.
My goal is to make a living at this, at some point, if I find that I am qualified for the task.
I dont know that I am qualified but there is a certain set of talents that lends itself to the craft, and I think I have at least some of what it takes.
I suppose it is smarter to start small and work my way up, but I'm approaching the "tooling up" aspect from a (some day) full time perspective.
Thanks for all your help guys!
More tooling questions in the not too distant future.

[Growley]

Uh, that's me too. I sold my car to buy a lathe and some additional tools (having only made one pipe prior). I don't know much about lathes, but I will say that I'm very happy with my Jet BD-920. I know, it's not made in the USA and it's probably not very good, but after days worth of hours on it I see no reason why it won't work well for me for a good long time.

As Tyler wisely impressed upon me, save some money for the times when you realize you need more stuff...like rod stock, blocks, files, sand paper, pin sets, buffers, stain, band saws, drill bits and on and on.

I took the approach that if I was going to do this, it would be good to have some decent tools. I personally was ok with this because I know that I'm kind of wired for making things with my hands, sanding, shaping and so on. I wouldn't go out and buy all the necessary tools to build a computer because I know I'm not wired for electronics so-to-speak.

All I'm saying from my limited experience is, if you think you're going to be good at it and have some past life experience that shows you will, ...and some extra cash, get some good tools. But, make a list, check it twice and buy them in the order of necessity. Think about what you're willing to work without and what you'd rather not work without. Example, I put some of my fancy buffing gear on hold because I know I don't mind sanding by hand a bit.

That's probably more info than what you were looking for but I've just recently gone through this process and don't have to look too far back to realize that selling my car to by tools was a fun and good idea for me. Don't get me wrong, I bought a cheaper car

Brian.

it's a big lathe to be sitting on a 2x4 floor

Arggggg. I knew that was the answer, but I had to ask it anyway. I would find a way around all the other issues, but I dont see any options for that one, short of renting space and I'm not ready to do that.
My biggest issue is that by the time you tool up a lesser lathe, at the very least your halfway to a Matthews, and in most cases you're there already. That, and power cross feed makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.
Also the fact that they're shipping soon is driving the sleepless nights, I've heard all the stories of waiting forever.

(Let me know if your wife is reading this forum, and I'll change that last sentence.)

What a guy that Tyler

Simeon, thanks for firsthand info about the machine/accessories. I suppose I need another plan for now but I'll console myself with an 1127VF-LB w/DRO and a 5C collett chuck in the distant future

It is only worth investing in something like this if you are at that point (or striving to be there)

Well, I dont want to be the dumb new guy that thinks he's going to be a really good pipemaker someday but he's never actually made a pipe, but I sort of am the dumb new guy that thinks he's going to be a great pipemaker some day even though he's never made a pipe....... Hmmm sounds pretty ridiculous now that I put it in writing.
But really, that is the way I am approaching this, ridiculous or not.
My goal is to make a living at this, at some point, if I find that I am qualified for the task.
I dont know that I am qualified but there is a certain set of talents that lends itself to the craft, and I think I have at least some of what it takes.
I suppose it is smarter to start small and work my way up, but I'm approaching the "tooling up" aspect from a (some day) full time perspective.
Thanks for all your help guys!
More tooling questions in the not too distant future.

[Alden]

Thanks Brian, that is the kind of perspective I like to hear.
You're right about the background suiting someone to one task or another.
My Mother has been a working artist (painting) my entire life, and I grew up heavily influenced by that.
My Dad had a woodshop that he worked in off and on my whole life too making mostly rustic furniture, cedar tables , clocks, mirrors etc.
I've dabbled a bit in both sides, drawing, sculpting and hobby woodworking my whole life.
I've also restored and done small repairs on hundreds of pipes in the last few years and really enjoy working with pipes, always have. I've probably owned 600-700 pipes over the years, I am a bit obsessed by them.
Does that mean I can make great pipes ?
No.
But it does give me a great place to start, and it gives me some knowledge of what a great pipe should be.
I've spent the last few years driving trucks cross country, and I'm just tired of it. But if I can spend 80 hours a week driving a truck, theres no reason I cant spend 80 hours a week in the shop. With that kind of dedication, I feel like the learning curve could be fairly short and steep.
Really though, with all of the priceless advice I've been soaking up from this board, it sure seems doable to me.

[Growley]

Yes, you're definitely going to master your craft much sooner with that type of dedication. As for making a living out of pipe making, that's something I don't aspire to do at this point. If you're trading trucking for a pipe making as a career, there are definitely other people on here who can offer some great advice to that point. Making them is one thing, making them great is another...and selling them seems to be a whole other ball of Carnuba.

It sounds like you have a background that will support you in your efforts. As you start shopping for tools feel free to hit me up at any time. I've just run through the gauntlet of buying most of what I need to get started. I still have my list

Brian.

Thanks Brian, that is the kind of perspective I like to hear.
You're right about the background suiting someone to one task or another.
My Mother has been a working artist (painting) my entire life, and I grew up heavily influenced by that.
My Dad had a woodshop that he worked in off and on my whole life too making mostly rustic furniture, cedar tables , clocks, mirrors etc.
I've dabbled a bit in both sides, drawing, sculpting and hobby woodworking my whole life.
I've also restored and done small repairs on hundreds of pipes in the last few years and really enjoy working with pipes, always have. I've probably owned 600-700 pipes over the years, I am a bit obsessed by them.
Does that mean I can make great pipes ?
No.
But it does give me a great place to start, and it gives me some knowledge of what a great pipe should be.
I've spent the last few years driving trucks cross country, and I'm just tired of it. But if I can spend 80 hours a week driving a truck, theres no reason I cant spend 80 hours a week in the shop. With that kind of dedication, I feel like the learning curve could be fairly short and steep.
Really though, with all of the priceless advice I've been soaking up from this board, it sure seems doable to me.

[Alden]

Making them is one thing, making them great is another...and selling them seems to be a whole other ball of Carnuba.

No question about it. I'm not thinking its easy, just that its something I would love to do for a living if I figure out its an option for me.
For now I've decided to go to my original plan, put together the basics of a shop, and find a used Midi lathe.
Someday I'll have a Matthews....

[Alden]

Problem solved. Just found a well taken care of Jet Bd-920n for $800.
WOOHOO.

[Growley]

Nice find! I paid $1,500 for mine. I can tell ya where to get an awesome chuck for it if you need one.

Problem solved. Just found a well taken care of Jet Bd-920n for $800.
WOOHOO.

[Alden]

I was about to give up on finding a good used lathe, been looking for months.
Was ready to just drop the $500 for a Midi lathe, this is much more awesome for not much moolah.
Sure send me the info on your chuck, this is going to make it easier to buy some other essentials quicker.

[e Markle]

Problem solved. Just found a well taken care of Jet Bd-920n for $800.
WOOHOO.

Nice! That's exactly what I use, and I love the thing. If it doesn't have the QC tool post, you'll want that.

I've owned the PM 11x27 LB (with a DRO) for about 3 months now (I paid for mine in January, and it arrived in June).

For some reason, I thought you had the VF... does that mean yours isn't a variable speed then? TJ mentioned he doesn't like the VF because when he hand drills the motor tries to compensate for the loss of torque (physics majors - is that the right term?) by kicking up the RPM's.

[SimeonTurner]

I've owned the PM 11x27 LB (with a DRO) for about 3 months now (I paid for mine in January, and it arrived in June).

For some reason, I thought you had the VF... does that mean yours isn't a variable speed then? TJ mentioned he doesn't like the VF because when he hand drills the motor tries to compensate for the loss of torque (physics majors - is that the right term?) by kicking up the RPM's.

Sorry, I left some initials off...I do have the VF. I like having the ability to adjust speeds as I go. I can't speak to Todd's objections because I have not really started ruining briar with shaping first yet (only 2 blocks destroyed in that learning curve so far).

My only real complaint is that the headstock mounting system is really weird. It's some sort of odd German design...you actually bolt the chuck to the headstock. This makes for slow chuck changes. I've gotten pretty quick at it, but I would much rather it was a threaded mount (I'm sure the rigidity is much better with it bolted, but I don't need it to be THAT precise).

I changed the gearbox oil yesterday for the first time....that was an oily disaster! I do have extraordinarily supple skin on my hands this morning though.

[Nate]

I've owned the PM 11x27 LB (with a DRO) for about 3 months now (I paid for mine in January, and it arrived in June).

For some reason, I thought you had the VF... does that mean yours isn't a variable speed then? TJ mentioned he doesn't like the VF because when he hand drills the motor tries to compensate for the loss of torque (physics majors - is that the right term?) by kicking up the RPM's.

Sorry, I left some initials off...I do have the VF. I like having the ability to adjust speeds as I go. I can't speak to Todd's objections because I have not really started ruining briar with shaping first yet (only 2 blocks destroyed in that learning curve so far).

My only real complaint is that the headstock mounting system is really weird. It's some sort of odd German design...you actually bolt the chuck to the headstock. This makes for slow chuck changes. I've gotten pretty quick at it, but I would much rather it was a threaded mount (I'm sure the rigidity is much better with it bolted, but I don't need it to be THAT precise).

I changed the gearbox oil yesterday for the first time....that was an oily disaster! I do have extraordinarily supple skin on my hands this morning though.

Stop being such a nancy Simeon, everyone knows gearbox oil is great for the pores!

In other news, I'm glad you like yours because I should have mine soon.... Riiiiight. Supposedly they're in the country, just waiting for delivery. Hope it's sooner rather than later. :/

[e Markle]

My only real complaint is that the headstock mounting system is really weird.

Good to know. Thanks Simeon.

[smokindawg]

Nice find! I paid $1,500 for mine. I can tell ya where to get an awesome chuck for it if you need one.

Problem solved. Just found a well taken care of Jet Bd-920n for $800.
WOOHOO.

I was lucky enough to get my Jet 920 on craigslist with the stand, two chucks, a QCTP, box full of cutting tools, 5/8" jacobs chuck and a few other things. Got it all for $600 and barely used. I love it, but am making a few upgrades as I go also.

[Alden]

Got it all for $600 and barely used.

You win.
This machine was bought used by the guy I got it from, but he didnt use it much before he upgraded to a huge Emco.
One cool thing, he has a Master Machinist that he paid to come out and help when he was setting up his shop. He said this guy spent hours checking tweaking and tuning this machine when he got it, so I feel pretty good about that.
I wonder how much of that tweaking got lost when I strapped it down on a trailer and moved it?
The guy I got it from was really cool, said he had always wanted to try a pipe, and wants to buy one from me when I get started.
I got a 3 jaw , 4 jaw and keyed Jacobs chuck, along with a QCTP, lots of cutting tools and a bunch of other parts I dont know if I need or not.
I figure within a month I should have a shop set up, and most of what I need to get started.

[caskwith]

Got it all for $600 and barely used.

You win.
This machine was bought used by the guy I got it from, but he didnt use it much before he upgraded to a huge Emco.
One cool thing, he has a Master Machinist that he paid to come out and help when he was setting up his shop. He said this guy spent hours checking tweaking and tuning this machine when he got it, so I feel pretty good about that.
I wonder how much of that tweaking got lost when I strapped it down on a trailer and moved it?
The guy I got it from was really cool, said he had always wanted to try a pipe, and wants to buy one from me when I get started.
I got a 3 jaw , 4 jaw and keyed Jacobs chuck, along with a QCTP, lots of cutting tools and a bunch of other parts I dont know if I need or not.
I figure within a month I should have a shop set up, and most of what I need to get started.

If I were you I would offer a free pipe if he can get his machinist friend to come round and check your setup and maybe give you a few tips. Information like that is invaluable if you are new to lathes.

[Alden]

Chris, I agree with you 100%.
He's supposed to send me the guys contact info, and I'd like to talk him into coming out to my shop for a few hours when I've got it all set up. Problem is, its a couple hours drive for him, so I may have to throw in some beer and barbecue to make it work

[caskwith]

Chris, I agree with you 100%.
He's supposed to send me the guys contact info, and I'd like to talk him into coming out to my shop for a few hours when I've got it all set up. Problem is, its a couple hours drive for him, so I may have to throw in some beer and barbecue to make it work

Good plan, in fact if there is beer and BBQ I'll come as well lol.

Seriously though the information you get from a seasoned machinist will be invaluable.