briar treatments

For discussion of the drilling and shaping of the stummel.
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ToddJohnson
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Post by ToddJohnson »

bscofield wrote:Todd, I didnt' mean that NEARLY as seriously as you took it. Maybe I should have done a different smiley face after the first sentace? :lol:

I wasn't even being 'half-serious.' I just had read rad's about the article and was going to ask about it... the rest of my post I was just screwin' around.

Seriously... I don't care about the jokes at all (see my posts in in the post regarding the c-clamp with the wood attached :) ).
No worries, I just find the threads about oil curing, briar treating, X-raying, etc. a little off point. They're fine, and this is a great place to kick ideas around, I just think they're funny, that's all. I'm glad you're one for humor too, but I will make certain in the future to try not to derail serious conversations. Kidding or not, that can be really annoying.

Best to all,

Todd
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KurtHuhn
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Post by KurtHuhn »

ToddJohnson wrote:No worries, I just find the threads about oil curing, briar treating, X-raying, etc. a little off point. They're fine, and this is a great place to kick ideas around, I just think they're funny, that's all. I'm glad you're one for humor too, but I will make certain in the future to try not to derail serious conversations. Kidding or not, that can be really annoying.
Maybe I'm being obtuse, but isn't that what this board is for? I find nothing funny about someones thirst for knowledge. The X-rays I can see - but oil curing and briar treating? Really?

If a respected carver makes it a point to suggest boiling your briar or oil curing it, I think would be a good idea to pay them heed, not poke fun in an indirect manner at those that want to know more.
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bscofield
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Post by bscofield »

I'm glad you're one for humor too, but I will make certain in the future to try not to derail serious conversations. Kidding or not, that can be really annoying.
whatever... so long as you don't think I was really upset about anything.
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ToddJohnson
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Post by ToddJohnson »

KurtHuhn wrote:
ToddJohnson wrote:No worries, I just find the threads about oil curing, briar treating, X-raying, etc. a little off point. They're fine, and this is a great place to kick ideas around, I just think they're funny, that's all. I'm glad you're one for humor too, but I will make certain in the future to try not to derail serious conversations. Kidding or not, that can be really annoying.
Maybe I'm being obtuse, but isn't that what this board is for? I find nothing funny about someones thirst for knowledge. The X-rays I can see - but oil curing and briar treating? Really?

If a respected carver makes it a point to suggest boiling your briar or oil curing it, I think would be a good idea to pay them heed, not poke fun in an indirect manner at those that want to know more.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. It's fine to discuss all these things, and you're right, this board is exactly the place to do it. I can appreciate a desire to make the best pipes possible, and if oil curing is part of that for you, I think that's great. I don't mean to poke fun at anyone. I just got a kick out of the Sherlockean tone of several posts, but I'm also someone who values good research. I meant no offense to anyone. I just think of things in terms of progression and consider oil curing something that comes along down the road, that's all. Other folks do different things though, and that's fine. I solemnly swear from here on out only to try and provide useful information and NO JOKES :) --that's a joke of course. Damnit, I screwed up already.

Sorry guys,

Todd
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KurtHuhn
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Post by KurtHuhn »

ToddJohnson wrote:Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. It's fine to discuss all these things, and you're right, this board is exactly the place to do it. I can appreciate a desire to make the best pipes possible, and if oil curing is part of that for you, I think that's great. I don't mean to poke fun at anyone. I just got a kick out of the Sherlockean tone of several posts, but I'm also someone who values good research. I meant no offense to anyone. I just think of things in terms of progression and consider oil curing something that comes along down the road, that's all. Other folks do different things though, and that's fine. I solemnly swear from here on out only to try and provide useful information and NO JOKES :) --that's a joke of course. Damnit, I screwed up already.
Not worries, man. Just don't let it happen again. :wink:

I see your point completely. Being an engineer and an artist, I sometimes find that I am at odds with myself. I can totally see the reason why people want to do this - for them, it's the baseline of a good smoke. Other people feel that they need to focus on aesthetics as a basis for a good pipe.

Folks who have been there and done that recognize this conflict, and try to balance what is necessary with what is personally desired. What makes sense from a logical productive standpoint with what is merely a pipe dream.

I agree about the sherlockian tone, and I'm certainly guilty of that from time to time - it's a holdover from too many investigative undertakings in my day job. Identify the symptom, find the problem, research a fix and implement it.

Of course, in the sense of briar treatment, it's not even be necessary if you have good briar. There is only one supplier I've dealt with that has sent me briar that tastes like poopy. Unfortunately, I have a metric buttload of it, and it's going to waste unless I can find a way to make it taste decent. In the meantime, I have plenty of Algerian that my customers can't say enough good things about.

There's always time, I suppose. But I'm a *very* impatient man. Just ask my wife. :) Besides, that's no gaurantee either. It really tastes like it wasn't properly processed at the cutter.
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Post by marks »

Kurt, one thing you can try is to take a couple of the poopy tasting blocks, draw a shape on them, drill them out, then let them sit and air dry. I have read several places that letting a drilled block sit for one or more months will work wonders.

Since you have a generous supply of this briar, this might be a great way to test that theory. You can easily drill out two or three and try them at different lengths of time.
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Post by KurtHuhn »

I've tried that, and it takes a *long* time - like a year. It does work, but that means I have to drill and bore every block. Ugh.

Must... dry... faster!
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Post by Gatorade »

DELETED
Last edited by Gatorade on Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brendhain
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Post by Brendhain »

Todd......just out of curiosity.....what subjects is it okay to discuss? :?

Just kidding Todd. I do know from where you are coming. It is a common enough reaction from one end of the spectrum to have a conflict with the other end. I have seen it on many other forums (I mentioned a silly debate about Laurent Fignon during the 1989 Tour de France costing him the win). Maybe I am just being Swedish (or a Kentuckian since I grew up there) but isn't there enough space for us and our idiotic speculations as well as the more serious, informative topics of a more practical matter?

I know that it can be annoying to be interested in the original discussion and have to sort through a bunch of joking and kidding inorder to get the information that you need but do realize that those of us who want to discuss oil curing or X-Raying(even I think that X-Raying is ridiculous) have a right to discuss it. Furthermore, everytime we want to discus these, and other subjects like it, we get a negative reaction from some people. This hijacks our original discussion and we are stuck having to defend our interests, just like we are doing now. We find that just as annoying as you find some of our subject matters.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Sorry for that last shamelessly sarcastic remark. :roll:
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ToddJohnson
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Post by ToddJohnson »

Hear ye, hear ye, I say again I am sorry if I rained on your parade. I think I said several times that this is precisely the place to discuss such things and I'm not trying to curtail anyone's discussion. I do, however, have the right to find things humorous. I assure you I meant it at no one's expense. It's natural in an already saturated market to try and find a way to build a better Widget and that's the sort of thing that drives progress. Such efforts are laudable. It just seems a little bit like in-depth discussions of oil curing methods at this point put the cart before the horse--but that is not my decision to make. So again, and for the absolute final time, I apologize. I was just kidding around because I found some things amusing; I didn't mean to offend anyone.

FWIW, when I had just begun making salable stuff I posted a thread to a different news group about analyzing the chemical compounds of briar to determine and expel any remaining "pollutants." I remember how pissed off I was at Mike Butera for getting on there, dropping the hammer with one post which basically poo-pooed the whole idea, and then disappearing again. Of course it turns out that he was exactly right--all my efforts came to naught --but that didn't make me any less angry or offended. All I'm trying to say is that time spent perfecting your craft might be better spent on other things, but I'm sorry if I came across as obnoxious. See, I lied, I did apologize again.

Be well,

Todd
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Brendhain
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Post by Brendhain »

Kurt..... What exactly is your situation with briar?

For how long have you had the "poopy" briar? Where is it kept? Does it look good but just taste bad?

What have you tried so far?

How much, exactly, is a "metric butt load"? Meaning how much of it are you sitting on?

Can you not sit on it and keep working with the Algerian until the "poopy" taste is gone? I know that money is always an issue, and frustrating when you want something NOW.

Are you aging your other blocks or do you immediately work it?

I hope you don't mind me prying but this wood, although frustrating, does provide an opportunity for experimentation.
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Post by KurtHuhn »

Brendhain wrote:Kurt..... What exactly is your situation with briar?

For how long have you had the "poopy" briar? Where is it kept? Does it look good but just taste bad?
I've had it for about a year, I didn't even touch it for about six months after receiving it. After the sixth month I made a tester pipe (as I do with all new riar shipments) to see what it was like - man was it disgusting.

I keep the briar on a wire shelf in my basement - the basement is finished, and not some dank hole. The temp and humidity are fairly constant - about 65 degrees and the dehumidifier tells me 70-75% in the winter, less in the summer.

I can tell which blocks will taste bad just by looking at them. They've got a reddish hue, they're typically out of square, and they tend to have more mold than "normal" on one surface or another. The worst ones will actually be quite warped. The stuff that doesn't taste bad will be a creamy color, almost no mold to speak of, and very square. I've separated them so that I don't get them confused when I need a piece of ebauchon.
What have you tried so far?
Time - waiting didn't work, they still taste aweful six months after I first tasted them, and a year after receiving.

Alcohol and Salt - AKA The Professor's Pipe Treatment. Mixed results, and nothing conclusive.

Bowl Coating - A *very* heavy boal coating using activated charcoal. No effect.

Oil curing - mostly a dismal failure due to not fully understanding oil curing. I may revisit that some day, but mostly I don't think I'll go down that route again.

Accellerated drying - Some success. The pipe needs to be bored, drilled, and rough shaped. Remove all the excess wood - important for getting the drying time down. After drying in the oven for 8 hours, and then setting out on the counter for 12 more, the pipe has an acceptable taste. It isn't neutral or sweet, but at least it doesn't taste like you're smoking wet wood shavings.

Given the above, I have to assume that the wood was either not properly boiled the first time around, or not dried sufficiently or both. Since oven-drying it takes away the bad taste, obviously more drying is needed. I could just let them sit, but given that I have had them for a year and there's no change in taste, that could be a *very* long time.

How much, exactly, is a "metric butt load"? Meaning how much of it are you sitting on?
I've got about 150 blocks from this supplier, roughly half are the "bad" blocks.
Can you not sit on it and keep working with the Algerian until the "poopy" taste is gone? I know that money is always an issue, and frustrating when you want something NOW.
Actually, that's what I've been doing. At this point I'm not even missing the bad ebauchon, since I've been using the Algerian for everything. The taste is great, the wood is incredibly workable, and the quality is very good for the price I pay.
Are you aging your other blocks or do you immediately work it?
At one point I was aging everything I got direct from a cutter for at least 6 months before I even considered using it on a pipe. However, the Algerian briar that I've been using is ready work right from the supplier. The taste is very neutral, and it is very dry wood.

The Algerian stuff can benefit from more drying - obviously. But in a pinch, it's good for use right away. Right after I got my first shipment, I made a tester pipe from it, and I was *very* pleased. I made a second one and sent it to a regular customer for his opinion, and he told me that this was, possibly, the best naked (as in untreated - like oil or whatever) briar he'd ever tasted. Based on that, I decided to leet it dry for three months and start using it for customers. Every single customer has contacted me and told me how much their pipe rocks (if I may inject a small amount of bragging).

What I normally do now is let the briar age for about 3 months, just to get acclimated to this environment, then I'll bore, drill, and rough shape it. After rough shaping, and prior to finish sanding, I let it rest for a minimum of one week on rush orders, longer on most orders. Just to give it time to further dry - though it doesn't really *need* it.
I hope you don't mind me prying but this wood, although frustrating, does provide an opportunity for experimentation.
Of course! I'm learning quite a bit aout what makes good or bad briar here.
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bscofield
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Post by bscofield »

Gatorade wrote:DELETED

I'm not quite sure why you deleted your post Gatorade, maybe you no longer meant what you said or something. But I have to respectfuly disagree with you. I don't believe, even tho he did say it was intentional, that Todd was in any way pulling rank or showing who's boss by making light of a post. That's a big jump and big assumption about somebody's character that shouldn't be made from a post on forum...

just my .02
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Post by Gatorade »

bscofield wrote:
Gatorade wrote:DELETED

I'm not quite sure why you deleted your post Gatorade, maybe you no longer meant what you said or something. But I have to respectfuly disagree with you. I don't believe, even tho he did say it was intentional, that Todd was in any way pulling rank or showing who's boss by making light of a post. That's a big jump and big assumption about somebody's character that shouldn't be made from a post on forum...

just my .02
Oh I still mean it... But let it go Ben... I'm returning to lurking... that's why I deleted the post.

I respectfully disagree with you in that my comment is a big jump and assumption on his character--it is based on observation of his interaction with different people; Random for instance.

Now, as for poking fun my NDI post--you're telling me it is silly to say that if, and it's a BIG IF, it was available, you would NOT take a peek a plateaux's inerds before investing 20 to 30 hours on a pipe? I say it's silly not to take advantage of it... for instance; NDI is down the hall from me--they have a digital system and the pictures can be emailed to me--no cost to anyone--I'm walking down the hall to get pictures.

Look, I would never say I need to own an X-ray machine for my pipe shop (I was born at night but not last night)... all I'm saying is; wouldn't it be nice to know what's inside BEFORE you start drilling and carving?

If you, Todd or anyone else feels like I offended them with what I posted, you need thicker skin. But don't worry, no more offensive posts from me--I'll be lurking.
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Post by bscofield »

Gatorade, I'll let it die after this... Just wanted to let you know that my posts had nothing to do with Todd's actions or what he thinks about the posts. In fact I've never even said if I've thought either of the posts were silly begin with! Just on the wierd character reference at the end of your post. I have no proiblem with the posts, never said that I did. Rather I asked for more info. on the boiling/baking stummel post. I started that my post with a stupid little comment just as an intro to asking Rad a question. Todd responded with an unfortunate choice of words. As for what you've noticed with Random... I have not opinion on that. I'm suprised that you've come to this conclusion what with most of what they even refer to as their "main disagreements" having not even occurred on this board (some not even in public from what I understand).

The NDI post is dear to my heart at this very moment as I have run into 2 pits in 2 pipes in the same day! Incidently a $15 block from JHLOWE and a $28 block from Jaume :?
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Post by ToddJohnson »

This whole thing has gotten ridiculous. Post, don't post, X-ray, cat scan, oil cure, hard boil, whatever. Nothing was meant to offend or silence anyone, I was just being silly about something I thought was silly. If I had a briar x-ray machine in my workshop I can't imagine it would serve any purpose or that I would use it. If someone else has an x-ray machine at their disposal and thinks its great, then kudos. I have no stake in the affair. Lesson learned though; no more goofing around about what others consider serious business. I find the martyrdom unwarranted after the twelve or so apologies, but do what you gotta do.

Todd
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Post by marks »

Todd, I still think your first post in this thread was very funny.

I find your humor humorous.

:D
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RadDavis
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Post by RadDavis »

I suspect that Todd's post to Ben was misunderstood.
I'm glad you're one for humor too, but I will make certain in the future to try not to derail serious conversations. Kidding or not, that can be really annoying.
My take on this is that Todd was saying to Ben that he understood that his (Todd's) or anyone's kidding about a serious inquiry could be really annoying, and he was being contrite.

I think that others (from reading subsequent posts) took it to mean that Todd was saying that Ben's post and others like it were annoying.

I don't think that Todd was saying that at all, and he has apologized about half a dozen times.

That should be enough.

And Gatorade, leaving the board because of some kidding around at your expense?

I don't think it's Todd or Ben who needs a thicker skin.

YMMV

Rad
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Post by RadDavis »

ALSO,

I think that what Todd was trying to, ever so gently, tell all of us fledgling pipe makers is:

Learn to make a pretty pipe first. One that will sell only because it looks good and is drilled properly.

THEN delve into the other mysterious and magical treatments, cures, etc. that make a pipe (maybe) a better smoker.

Otherwise, as Todd mentioned, you're putting the cart before the horse.

The best oil cure, treatment, bowl coating, etc. will not sell an ugly pipe.

Rad
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Post by jthpipes »

Todd,

I happen to love the humor you bring to some of the posts and people just need to relax, take a deep breath and smoke a bowl of their favorite tobacco. Don't let it get to you.
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